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Thread: Walk Back Tuning

  1. #1

    Walk Back Tuning

    Hey, can anyone explain or recommend a site that explains walk back tuning. I've found articles, but they're confusing. Thanks

  2. #2
    First, welcome to AT. Second, there is a search feature on the tool bar above.If you check it out you will find lots of info on walk back tuning.Basically you hang a weight on the end of a string to make sure it's plumb.Shoot an arrow at 20 yds,then "walk back" to 30 yds and shoot the same 20 yd spot with your 20 yd pin.Then walk back to 40 yds and do the same.Your arrows will make a pattern down the string like this \ or this / or if your lucky they will line up parallel to the string. Move your rest in small amounts left or right until they line up on the string.Once your arrows hit in the same vertical plane adjust the sight windage so the arrows will center the striing.


    Good luck
    CB

  3. #3
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    I recently did a "walkback tune" with my Reflex Highlander, because I was noticing some ever-so-slight cock vane contact (rippled vanes). It wasn't enough to disrupt arrow flight, but yet the cock vane would get rippled.

    My error: I was assuming everything was good and set to go, ready to rock, etc... because my Magnus Stingers were hitting right with my field tips at 20 yards. So, I too read about walkback tuning and decided to double check my setup.

    1) Take a roll of 2" wide masking tape and tape a straight line down your target. (I have the Block 4x4 as a target)

    2) Use your 20 yard pin. Keep using the 20 yard pin regardless during the test.

    3) Start at 20 yards to get "comfortable" and use a field tip arrow and shoot the center bullseye, covered up by the masking tape.

    4) Move up to 10 yards with another field tip arrow and shoot again at the same bullseye and at same arrow.

    5) Move back to 30 yards, and again use another field tip arrow and shoot again at the same bullseye.

    With common field tips, you will see a pattern like this:
    ....................
    .........o......... (10 yards)
    ....................
    .........o......... (20 yards)
    ....................
    .........o......... (30 yards)
    ....................

    Looks good, doesn't it? Field tips don't really show much, but will show that you are setup nice, but not truely tuned for hunting.


    6) Now take 3 more arrows tipped with broadheads that you will use and repeat the above test.

    With broadheads, you might see a pattern like this.
    This shows the "centershot" to be ever-so-slightly off:
    ....................
    ........x.......... (10 yards)
    ....................
    .........x......... (20 yards)
    ....................
    ..........x........ (30 yards)
    ....................

    This really showed me what was happening to my setup, my arrow flight, and the rippled cock vanes. Since I'm LEFTY I had to very carefully, very gently, just barely, nudge my NAP Quiktune 1000 prong rest in to the right (in towards the riser - remember, I'm lefty). Then I repeated the test again, and couldn't believe the results. I wish I could have snapped a digital photo of the 6 arrows I shot.... One arrow (broadhead) ripped one of the fletchings of the previous (field tip) arrow! Plus the "x" and "o" of the broadheads and field tips (in the above example) are all perfectly in a straight line. And more importantly, I am not getting rippled cock vanes anymore. The cock vane was just rubbing enough on the left side of the rest to cause a ripple, that's all.

    I hope this example helps with walk back tuning. If I can do it and figure it out, anyone can!

    Butch A.
    Last edited by ButchA; August 30th, 2006 at 09:32 AM.

  4. #4
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    As explained above, but here's what you want in the end:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
    Great! Those posts helped a lot. Thanks!

  6. #6
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    Good explaination, Cajun. Now what do us old guys do that can't see the string? LOL. I guess I gotta use a bull rope with a briack hanging on the bottom. Just a laugh, buddy.
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  7. #7
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    Hey again... I just realize that after a while you can't go back and edit your posts!

    Anyway, I noticed serious error in my post about moving my arrow rest. I meant to say move the arrow rest LEFT in towards the riser... I'm a lefty!! Moving it right, would move it away from the riser. Oops... sorry.

    Butch A.

  8. #8
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    Walkback tuning results:
    ....................
    ........x.......... (10 yards)
    ....................
    .........x......... (20 yards)
    ....................
    ..........x........ (30 yards)
    ....................
    Left handed - move rest LEFT
    Right handed - move rest RIGHT.

    -----------OR-----------------

    ....................
    ..........x......... (10 yards)
    ....................
    .........x......... (20 yards)
    ....................
    ........x.......... (30 yards)
    ....................
    Left handed - move rest RIGHT
    Right handed - move rest LEFT.

    Sorry for the confusion....

  9. #9
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    I might be confused but I think the direction for the rest to move is the same for both left and right shooters?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman409
    I might be confused but I think the direction for the rest to move is the same for both left and right shooters?
    Same here. The rest movement should be the same as far as left and right. If you had mentioned moving it towards or away from the bow then the directions would be revered for a righty vs lefty.

    " You know, I think this recurve thing just might catch on"


  11. #11
    Hang a weighted string from a nail on a target.

    Stick a round sticker on the target face so that the string splits the sticker. Use your existing 20-yd pin, step back 20-yards from the target and fire at the sticker.

    Don't worry about where the arrow hits.

    Walk straight back to 30 yds, and using the same 20-yd pin setting,
    fire an arrow at the sticker.

    Repeat at 35 yds and at 40 yds, using the 20-yd pin and firing at the sticker.

    If your arrows look like this pattern " / " or “\”,
    then pick a direction and move your arrow rest 1/16th inch.





    If the pattern gets straighter (more vertical), then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction.





    If the pattern gets more crooked, then adjust in the other direction.

    Keep firing arrows and keep adjusting the arrow rest position until you get a vertical pattern of arrows.

    Eventually, your arrows will hit in the target is a straight up and down line like this " | ".





    LOCK down the arrow rest setting. Your centershot is perfect.



    But, your vertical pattern of arrows may not be hitting the string.

    The vertical pattern of arrows may be on one side of the string.
    Let’s say the arrows are say 6-inches to the left of the weighted string.



    Pick a direction to adjust your sight ring windage. Adjust the sight ring windage 1/16th of an inch. Repeat the test. Fire arrows at least 3 distances, and see if the vertical pattern of arrows gets closer to the string.

    If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting closer to the string, then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction. If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting farther away, then adjust in the other direction.

    Eventually, you will have a vertical pattern of arrows right on top of the string.

    Lock down the windage and lock down the arrow rest. Windage and center shot are now perfect.
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  12. #12
    B&N, how does this account for nocking point issues?

    So we have our centershot perfect and our sights windage perfect, but our arrows might still be porpoising, no?

    Just playing devil's advocate.

    I've never walked back tuned, but thinking about trying it tonight.


  13. #13
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    Walkback tuning doesn't tell you anything about nocking point - you need to paper tune with a bareshaft to get that set. According to the Hoyt "Arrow Tuning & Maintenance Guide" and Rick Stonebreaker's "Tuning for Tens," you can shoot at anywhere from 2 to 6 yards from the paper

    Why bare shaft? So the vanes don't straighten out the shaft and you can see how it's really flying. (Of course, shooting a fletched arrow from 2 or 3 yards doesn't give the vanes much time to work, but it gives them some.)

    If you see a bullet hole or a horizontal tear, your nock point is good. Otherwise (i.e., any vertical component in the tear), move your nock in the direction the arrow is pointing when it went through the paper - arrow point low, move the nock point down, etc.

    Now I have a question: I shoot a Hoyt Accutec with fingers and a plunger button. What is the most efficient way to tune centershot (CS) and plunger tension? Stonebreaker seems to reccommend paper tuning for CS and shaft stiffness with the a hard plunger set to place the bareshaft in the mechanical center of the bow. That is, aligning the bareshaft with the string travel path. After the bow weight and shaft stiffness are matched and CS set (no or minimal horizontal tear), then he sets the CS to "1/2 shaft out" (in the usual way) and tunes by grouping size with fletched shafts solely by varying plunger stiffness to get the smallest group.

    Hoyt's Tuning guide is more complex, but basically seems to advocate bareshaft group tuning to "rough" set up CS and nock height, followed by paper tuning with fletched arrows to get a "finer" tune. Hoyt then has an additional set of "Micro-" and "Fine Tuning" steps.

    I'm soooo confused!

  14. #14
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    Here's an image I grabbed from Easton's tuning guide....

    I followed this advice and simply reversed the broadhead shot diagrams, since I'm lefty.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by FSL4ever
    Walkback tuning doesn't tell you anything about nocking point - you need to paper tune with a bareshaft to get that set. According to the Hoyt "Arrow Tuning & Maintenance Guide" and Rick Stonebreaker's "Tuning for Tens," you can shoot at anywhere from 2 to 6 yards from the paper

    Why bare shaft? So the vanes don't straighten out the shaft and you can see how it's really flying. (Of course, shooting a fletched arrow from 2 or 3 yards doesn't give the vanes much time to work, but it gives them some.)

    If you see a bullet hole or a horizontal tear, your nock point is good. Otherwise (i.e., any vertical component in the tear), move your nock in the direction the arrow is pointing when it went through the paper - arrow point low, move the nock point down, etc.

    Now I have a question: I shoot a Hoyt Accutec with fingers and a plunger button. What is the most efficient way to tune centershot (CS) and plunger tension? Stonebreaker seems to reccommend paper tuning for CS and shaft stiffness with the a hard plunger set to place the bareshaft in the mechanical center of the bow. That is, aligning the bareshaft with the string travel path. After the bow weight and shaft stiffness are matched and CS set (no or minimal horizontal tear), then he sets the CS to "1/2 shaft out" (in the usual way) and tunes by grouping size with fletched shafts solely by varying plunger stiffness to get the smallest group.

    Hoyt's Tuning guide is more complex, but basically seems to advocate bareshaft group tuning to "rough" set up CS and nock height, followed by paper tuning with fletched arrows to get a "finer" tune. Hoyt then has an additional set of "Micro-" and "Fine Tuning" steps.

    I'm soooo confused!

    Not that confusing.

    Walk back tuning for centershot.
    Fire a bareshaft to set nock point elevation.

    I prefer to shoot a bareshaft into a foam target
    or out at the range,
    and adjust nock point until I get perfectly level
    penetration when firing at a bullseye
    set at the shooter's shoulder height.

    The key is to launch the bareshaft from a level starting position.

    If the bareshaft launches from a level launching position,
    and the bareshaft sticks into the target also perfectly
    level, then we have level flight,
    and the nocking point is in the right place.

    In terms of setting the plunger correctly
    for centershot,
    we are dealing with two issues.

    Centershot for a fingers shooter
    is setting the horizontal offset away from the riser
    by means of rotating the plunger barrel
    clockwise to move the arrow shaft away from the riser (RH shooter)
    or
    rotating the plunger barrel counter clockwise
    to move the arrow shaft closer to the riser (RH shooter).

    I agree with Rick,
    about the stiff plunger (insert a wooden match stick to temporarily replace the spring) or just set the spring tension to maximum.

    Perform walk back tuning to set your centershot.

    When walkback tuning is complete,
    then you use the spring tension in the plunger button
    to group tune your arrows.

    You have three options to fine tune for dynamic spine
    when you are a fingers shooter.

    1) You can use the plunger spring tension to find the best dampening
    settin to get the best groups.

    2) You can adjust the draw weight of the bow

    3) You can customize the tip weight of your arrows
    by adding weight to the glue in target point nibb points
    or grinding away the nibb points for custom target point weight.

    Any of these three methods will adjust the dynamic spine response of the arrow so you can group tune for the tightest groups for you and your bow.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
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  16. #16
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    Nuts&Bolts:

    Thanks! That's a great, clear post. I am right in the middle of a complete re-tune so I'll follow your advice and get back to the board with my results. So far I've set the nock height with the bareshaft and set CS with Rick's procedure. I will then check and fine-tune the CS with a walk-back test tomorrow (if it doesn't rain on me). I plan to keep the plunger stiff (using a matchstick) for this part of the setup to eliminate plunger compensation from the equation. (Is that appropriate?)

    Next I'll tune the plunger tension using group tuning. Do you think I need to re-set the CS to "half shaft out" before I tune plunger tension? That seems to be what Rick is saying; Hoyt's Tuning guide also indicates starting from a "half shaft out" CS.

    A follow-up question, since I just re-read JAVI's (and others') most excellent posts on Cam Timing: Do I need to be concerned with my set-up? My tiller is matched top & bottom and I can't feel any bumps or oddities in the draw force.

    The problem is that I am not sure what cams are on my 2000 Accutec (build XN), so I don't know where to start. The letoff is not adjustible, but the draw length is, in 1/2 inch increments from 25.5 to 29 inches. The cams (which match in shape - they aren't wheels) are marked "C2T" and "C2B" (top and bottom, respectively). My ATA is 40 inches and brace height to grip throat is 7-7/8 inches; the Hoyt sticker on the limbs states that the string length is 54.5 inches and the b.c. is 34.5 inches, which is what I shoot. However, Hoyt's Tuning Chart for the 2000 Accutec with XT2000 limbs (the only year they made that combo) doesn't list ANY cam/module combination that matches the sticker. Should I care???

  17. #17
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    Ahhhh, sorry. After finding another great post by JAVI, I now see that I have #2 Command Cams, low (65%) letoff, and am using the 25.5 inch draw length hole "A" - thus "2-A" module/cam # on the Hoyt chart. And, because I'm old and can't read in dim light, I originally mis-read the limb sticker -- it IS correct, showing a 35.5 inch bus cable spec.

    So, if I have to adjust timing, I know where to start. My ATA appears to be 5/8 inch long and my brace height is 3/8 inch high (maybe - where does Hoyt measure from?). Will being "out of spec" in BH and ATA affect my other tuning?
    Last edited by FSL4ever; August 31st, 2006 at 12:20 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuts&bolts

    But, your vertical pattern of arrows may not be hitting the string.

    The vertical pattern of arrows may be on one side of the string.
    Let’s say the arrows are say 6-inches to the left of the weighted string.



    Pick a direction to adjust your sight ring windage. Adjust the sight ring windage 1/16th of an inch. Repeat the test. Fire arrows at least 3 distances, and see if the vertical pattern of arrows gets closer to the string.

    If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting closer to the string, then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction. If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting farther away, then adjust in the other direction.

    Eventually, you will have a vertical pattern of arrows right on top of the string.

    Lock down the windage and lock down the arrow rest. Windage and center shot are now perfect.
    I'm a little confused it is impossible for a bow to be set up so all the arrows miss by the same amount to one side over different distances.
    Last edited by Gerry50; September 15th, 2006 at 05:18 PM.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry50
    I,m a little confused it is impossible for a bow to be set up so all the arrows miss by the same amount to one side over different distances.

    Gerry50:

    I am not that great of an artist.

    My first version of the picture,
    I just used one mark(small triangle) per distance,
    so I showed just one arrow mark for the short distance,
    one arrow mark for the medium distance
    and one arrow mark for the long distance shot.

    Then, folks looked at my drawings "literally"
    and assumed that walk back tuning was only for expert shooters,
    who could get the arrow to hit the hanging string
    from 20 yds, 40 yds and 60 yds.


    I explained that walk back tuning is for beginner shooters
    and intermediate shooters and expert shooters.

    I explained that if you are not sure that firing one arrow
    at 20 yds gives you a good indication, then fire a group of arrows
    at 20 yds, and look at the center of the group of arrows
    (center of mass).

    Then, I explained, shoot a group of arrows at a longer distance
    (say 30 yds).

    Then, I explained shoot a group of arrows at a even longer distance
    (say 40 yds).

    Then, draw a circle around the 20 yd group of arrows,
    and mark the center of the circle.

    Then, draw a circle around the 30 yd group of arrows,
    and mark the center of the 30 yd circle of arrows.

    Then, draw a circle around the 40 yd group of arrows,
    and mark the center of the 40 yd circle of arrows.

    When the center of the 20 yd circle
    and the center of the 30 yd circle
    and the center of the 40 yd circle of arrows

    (regardless of the size of the grouping)
    (the circle of arrows for an expert shooter might be very small)
    (the circle of arrows for a beginning shooter might be very large)

    as long as the center of the 20 yd circle
    is directly above the center of the 30 yd circle
    and is also directly above the center of the 40 yd circle,


    then the centershot is set correctly
    for the beginning level shooter, for the intermediate level shooter
    and for the expert level shooter.

    So, my drawing is not "drawn to scale", that's all.

    Trying to explain that walk back tuning can work for every shooter,
    and not just the expert shooters.
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  20. #20
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    Pick a direction to adjust your sight ring windage. Adjust the sight ring windage 1/16th of an inch. Repeat the test. Fire arrows at least 3 distances, and see if the vertical pattern of arrows gets closer to the string.

    If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting closer to the string, then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction. If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting farther away, then adjust in the other direction.

    Eventually, you will have a vertical pattern of arrows right on top of the string.

    Lock down the windage and lock down the arrow rest. Windage and center shot are now perfect
    This is the part i'm refering to. You have set centreshot then you say adjust your sight ring windage to move the vertical pattern of arrows if you do this surely you would end up back where you started with a pattern like this / please correct me if i'm wrong.
    Last edited by Gerry50; September 15th, 2006 at 06:02 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry50
    This is the part i'm refering to. You have set centreshot then you say adjust your sight ring windage to move the vertical pattern of arrows if you do this surely you would end up back where you started with a pattern like this / please correct me if i'm wrong.
    Simple method…

    Adjust your rest to recommended center-shot or eyeball it… don’t really matter..

    Now adjust your sight pin for 15 or 20 yards and the windage reasonably close… it don’t really matter except you don’t want to shoot over or miss the target butt. Use only that one pin for the whole deal... the idea is to see the arrows fall down the target face in a pattern as you walk back..

    Now put you a dot or X on a paper plate or piece of cardboard; anything really that you can stick close to the top of the Butt…

    Step back to about 15 yards or so… and making sure you hold the bow sight level… fling an arrow at that dot or X… make a note of where it is… and leave the arrow there…

    Step back 5 more yards and repeat… continue to step back in 5 yard increments ‘till you run out of arrows or target butt… or miss the butt…

    Now if your pattern looks like this / move your rest a tad to the left… and repeat the process until the pattern looks like this | …. If you see you are gonna miss the butt ‘cause you moved the rest so far, then stop reset your windage on the sight… and start over…

    If the fall pattern looks like this \ then move the rest to the right…

    When you’re done and the arrows all line up in a nice neat vertical line… set your sight… and start group tuning at long range…

  22. #22
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    Clarify!

    If you are setting your sight, you "chase" the arrows with the sight pins.
    In other words, if your arrows are shooting right, move the sight to the right.

    When walk back tuning for center shot, Do you do the same thing with the rest??? I'm reading contradictory approaches in this thread.

    In other words, do you "chase the arrows" with the rest, the same way you chase the arrows with the sight? Only minor movements, of course, on the rest.
    -2005 Hoyt LH Vipertec, Anchor Sight
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  23. #23
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    Missing somthing

    Maybe I missed something on this thread but I have a flaw with this system of tuning the way it has been explained.

    If the sights of the bow are not already dialed in then you could be getting false indications of tune for the bow. I will use rifles for example. If your scope is one inch off at 100 yards then it will be 2 inches off at 200, 4 at 400 and on out.

    This would also be the same for a bow. It the sight is hitting 1 inch to the left at 20 then it will hit wider at 25-30-35 and on out. This is why I never really consider my 20yd pin truley dialed in until I have adjusted windage at 50 or more. If you are holding the bow straight up and down (not taking wind into account) the arrow should never go anywhere but down if the windage is set tue

  24. #24
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    The devil is in the details.

    The correct spine arrow will hit the same vertical line at all distances,
    while the incorrect spine arrow will not.

    Trying to chase perfection with an improperly tuned bow and the wrong spine arrow is like wiping your backside with the back of your hand.

    If you want success do it right.

    Set the bow up the way it was designed.

    Correct the brace height, axle to axle length, and cam timing. And shoot the correct spine arrow for the bow.

    If you did your homework the sight pins, arrow, and arrowrest will be real close to a straight line when veiwed from the shooters perspective, and the bow will also shoot in a straight line at all distances.

    Good luck tuning! >>>------------>

  25. #25
    If you are setting your sight, you "chase" the arrows with the sight pins.
    In other words, if your arrows are shooting right, move the sight to the right.

    When walk back tuning for center shot, Do you do the same thing with the rest??? I'm reading contradictory approaches in this thread.

    In other words, do you "chase the arrows" with the rest, the same way you chase the arrows with the sight? Only minor movements, of course,
    Long shot chases short shot. For and example if your line runs like this for a right hander / . The top of the line is your 20 yard shot and the bottom being 50 yards. What you do is the 50 yard mark you chase the rest to the 20 yard mark, so you would be moving the arrow rest in towards the bow.
    Last edited by Spotshooter2; October 18th, 2006 at 11:54 PM.

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