Aiming and the 15 yard drill - Page 2

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  1. #26
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    8,228
    Quote Originally Posted by loujo61 View Post
    A few years ago I asked Jim Despart on here about his float and he said his pin very seldom left the ten ring on a Vegas. Isn't trying to hold on the X different than having the ability to hold on the X? I do understand the value of a good sight picture, like when you make a great fifty yard shot (3D) then move up to twenty five and miss the ten ring, that is definitely a mental thing - When your aiming at a 3D target fifty yards away your pin is taking up a lot more area on that target but your point of aim is finer because you also have the out line of the animal for reference - Up at twenty yards I can hold on the X but sometimes I get caught up in that hold and loose focus of the broader picture of where the pin is at on the animal. I can shoot a much better Vegas round by referencing my pin to the center of the Yellow than I can by TRYING to hold the pin on an X. I feel that I am ABLE to hold the pin close to the center of the Yellow but UNABLE to hold it on the X. Is being able to hold on the inside of the X achievable for everyone? Or, are the rest of us older less able archers always going to be just trying to hold on the X. I watched Dee Wilde and other older shooters at Lancaster and by the looks of the end of their stabilizers they had movement beyond the X, they still can hit the X though.
    I think you are mixing apples and oranges. Let's put aside "holding the pin on the X" and call this centering the pin. Mount the bow in a shooting machine and center the dot. You can not possibly see the X because the dot is covering it. The farther you move back, the more of the target the dot covers. And to add to this little factoid, when you execute the shot that X that is hidden gets struck by the arrow. This is true no matter what size dot, fiber, etc. you use. Of course there will be the exception of rings but let's stick with dots and the like. Doesn't it make much more sense to look at this as a centering skill? I know thinking of it this way has helped me.

    Brunson talks about understanding the good shot. In the Anders Ericsson book "Peak" he refers to this understanding as having a good "mental representation". Two months ago or less I was in the camp that believed holding in the center was impossible for me and have always tried to stare down the X. Yes, it was impossible because the concept of staring down the X encourages movement. This is because in those rare instances when the dot actually centers and stays there you actually have to move it to see the X. For me this has been a constant battle of two forces fighting one another. The conscious part of me is fighting to center the dot and the subconscious part of me wants to move the damn thing out of the way so I can see what I'm shooting at. It's been like trying to force two like poles of a magnet together.

    I'm in my infancy with this centering thing but I do see the light. I know it's possible because I can do it. Am I able to do it every time, no, as I'm still full of the demons from the past but I am getting there. Self-diagnosis is critical, and this can't be done without a good mental representation. My mental representation is obviously still in the development stage but I'm already seeing the benefit of the self-diagnosis ability that is developing along with it.

    We have a local competition circuit consisting of 6 archery clubs and shops that have shoots each Saturday and Sunday throughout the winter season. I shot one this morning, a Blue/White 300 round. The lighting in this particular shop was poor. I let that bother me and as a result really struggled for the first 10 ends. About the 9th or 10th end I told myself to stop screwing around and just center the damn thing and shoot. My last 2 ends were nothing but X's. Ok, I shot lousy today but I came away with the understanding that my recent training is paying off. Yes, I can do it, but I have to "make" myself do it. The fact that I have enough understanding of my shot to bring myself back from the quagmire is big. I see nothing but positive things coming from this new mindset and direction that I am taking.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

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  3. #27
    Awesome last paragraph -- especially, "...but I came away with the understanding that my recent training is paying off. ... The fact that I have enough understanding of my shot to bring myself back from the quagmire is big. I see nothing but positive things coming from this new mindset and direction that I'm taking."

    The main problem for all us old guys is getting stuck in a rut and being reticent to embark on the journey to improvement.

    My hat is off to you for not only starting, but also for sticking to it --- especially when it is so easy to get discouraged when you seem to be going backward instead of forwards toward your goals.

    Now you get to see the rewards of all that work.
    Leadership is 24/7/365. Somebody is always watching even if it is only me.

    Archery Unlimited//Mathews Bows//Carter Releases//B-Stinger//Axcel Sight

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  5. #28
    The only things that have helped me physically hold better are weight and stronger and improved form. I'm very capable of holding in the Yellow, it comes easy to me just like it came easy for Jim Despart to hold on the Vegas ten or in the X of the Blue and White target. I'm 52 years old and I can't hold as good as I use to, I can hold in the X most of the time but it's a fight, I'm not good at fighting anymore either. IMO if you are focused on the pin you won't see the X as clear when the shot breaks as you would if you were focusing on the target, there's your follow through. I do know you Guys are great shots and have much to offer but I'm just not picking up on what you're saying yet.

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  7. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
    About the 9th or 10th end I told myself to stop screwing around and just center the damn thing and shoot. My last 2 ends were nothing but X's. Ok, I shot lousy today but I came away with the understanding that my recent training is paying off. Yes, I can do it, but I have to "make" myself do it. The fact that I have enough understanding of my shot to bring myself back from the quagmire is big. I see nothing but positive things coming from this new mindset and direction that I am taking.
    That's what it's all about right there. Knowing what to do and then having the discipline to make yourself do it. It's harder than it sounds of course, but you're never left wondering why you didn't center punch the X. The hardest part is the discipline. Just always remember that errors happen. Bad shots happen, but they don't change what a good shot is. Dont define your ability by your number of bad shots. Define it by your ability to make a single good one. Build on that.
    Hoyt
    Tru Ball/Axcel
    Gold Tip/B-Stinger

  8. #30
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    8,228
    Quote Originally Posted by loujo61 View Post
    The only things that have helped me physically hold better are weight and stronger and improved form. I'm very capable of holding in the Yellow, it comes easy to me just like it came easy for Jim Despart to hold on the Vegas ten or in the X of the Blue and White target. I'm 52 years old and I can't hold as good as I use to, I can hold in the X most of the time but it's a fight, I'm not good at fighting anymore either. IMO if you are focused on the pin you won't see the X as clear when the shot breaks as you would if you were focusing on the target, there's your follow through. I do know you Guys are great shots and have much to offer but I'm just not picking up on what you're saying yet.
    I started shooting at 51 or 52. I'm 71 now so I'm not following your logic along these lines either.

    To our other discussion: if you are focusing on the X you can't be holding on the X. Of course you may be Superman and have X-ray vision. Just curious as to how a mere human could do this?
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

  9. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
    I started shooting at 51 or 52. I'm 71 now so I'm not following your logic along these lines either.

    To our other discussion: if you are focusing on the X you can't be holding on the X. Of course you may be Superman and have X-ray vision. Just curious as to how a mere human could do this?
    71 that is quite amazing, most people would be more than happy with your game. Don't follow anything I have to say, I'm a little grumpy though three weeks ago I had carpal tunnel surgery on my left hand and this Tuesday I'm getting the right hand done, no shooting for me. Good news, the left hand is healing well and most of the symptoms are going away, hopefully it took some of the shake of it.

    As for our other discussion: I fight for a solid hold then I slowly open up my sight picture to center my pin in the Yellow, I shoot a hinge so if I did it right and my sight picture is good I allow the shot, when the shot breaks I see the X because I'm focusing on the target, there's my follow through. I can't seem to allow a good shot to happen when I'm focusing on and fighting to hold the pin, then when the shot breaks I usually loose my sight picture. Also, I used to shoot with both eyes open but I developed an astigmatism in my dominate eye so I have close my left eye or it will take over. When I did shoot with both eyes open I could just focus on the X without the use of any super powers and execute the shot.

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