Aiming and the 15 yard drill

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  1. #1
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    Aiming and the 15 yard drill

    During my entire shooting career I've not believed I could hold steady enough to work on a shot that was simply held in the middle. As a result of this mindset I have tried various workarounds to avoid this issue. Some have been successful but all have been short lived. The problem with this path is that I never truly had a good understanding of my shot process (read: Mental Representation). The thread; "Are skills developed or are they natural" http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4660489 started me on a new path... The path to hold in the middle. It was pointed out that the first step in this process (I believe by cbrunson) is to accept that it can be done. At some point I did discover that I "could" hold in the middle, if only a small percentage.

    After making this discovery I went into a terrible slump, couldn't hit a 30 on a Vegas face if my life depended on it, let alone a clean 300 which is my goal. Last Sunday I started shooting practice rounds at 15 yards. My focus is on holding but I am scoring each round. I started out with a 297 on Sunday but since shot a couple of 295's. I then broke the game down by half making it a 150 game. I'm still dropping an average of two per round but these are generally due to poor execution as my ability to hold in the middle is improving. Even though this drill was only started this past Sunday I'm actually seeing some positive impact at 20 yards as well. I shot a season high in my league last night.

    The hump that I'll need to overcome is wanting to focus on the spot rather than the dot. I start out well but as the game progresses I want to change my focus point. This causes a tendency to want to move the dot out of the way because it's blocking my view. I assume the answer is to let down when this happens but I am open to suggestions.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

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  3. #2
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    Have you tried a ring instead of a dot on your scope?
    Or try some aiming drills, draw, aim, let down . This will train your brain to think that it's ok to let the dot sit there on the x,
    Forgive me if i am qrong but you are focusing on your dot and not the x? If that is so it is the opposite of how i have been coached, glue your eye to that x because that's where you will naturally bring the dot to, most shots i make have my pin blurry because of the focus but i have found when I'm a little off at the shot the arrow is still going into the 10 as my body corrects the aim

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  5. #3
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    It sounds like you're peeking? If that's the case; what helped me was going from a dot to a .19 pin. Now I just focus on the X and let the pin come in and cover it. My float is roughly in and out of the X ring but within the 10 ring. If I execute a clean release it's in the X. If I shoot a 10 or 9 it's due to a bobble at the shot or a rushed shot/release. The bobbles however have become very infrequent if everything is good on my pre-shot checklist.
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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by nswarcher View Post
    Have you tried a ring instead of a dot on your scope?
    Or try some aiming drills, draw, aim, let down . This will train your brain to think that it's ok to let the dot sit there on the x,
    Forgive me if i am qrong but you are focusing on your dot and not the x? If that is so it is the opposite of how i have been coached, glue your eye to that x because that's where you will naturally bring the dot to, most shots i make have my pin blurry because of the focus but i have found when I'm a little off at the shot the arrow is still going into the 10 as my body corrects the aim
    Yes, I've tried rings. Just one of my many workarounds. Focusing on the X is what my brain wants to do but I want to retrain to focus on centering the dot. One of my issues with X focus is that the dot obstructs my view to the x making me want to move it out of the way. This is the very frustrating catch 22 that I am trying to resolve. I am currently working with a fiber up pin with a dot behind it on the lens. This seems to be close to what my brain likes (for now). My 15 yard drill is my current aiming drill. It seems to have some promise.

    Quote Originally Posted by dk-1 View Post
    It sounds like you're peeking? If that's the case; what helped me was going from a dot to a .19 pin. Now I just focus on the X and let the pin come in and cover it. My float is roughly in and out of the X ring but within the 10 ring. If I execute a clean release it's in the X. If I shoot a 10 or 9 it's due to a bobble at the shot or a rushed shot/release. The bobbles however have become very infrequent if everything is good on my pre-shot checklist.
    If "peeking" is looking around the dot to see the X, I'm guilty. My fiber is .029, and as mentioned above, is in front of a dot. I also have a .019 set up the same way. The process that you describe, if I understand it correctly, is one that requires the dot to enter the sight picture as you focus on the X. This is exactly the process that I have used for years. I have had some success with it but believe I have gotten all I can out of it. As cbrunson said somewhere; when the dot is n the middle the arrow also goes there. While that may not be an exact quote, I believe this is an accurate representation of his message. I know this can happen as I'm working to improve this ability. This may be a simple visual thing that needs to be identified and worked through. I may try a clarifier to blur out the dot some and clear up the spot. This may encourage my focus to search for the dot rather than the spot.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
    Yes, I've tried rings. Just one of my many workarounds. Focusing on the X is what my brain wants to do but I want to retrain to focus on centering the dot. One of my issues with X focus is that the dot obstructs my view to the x making me want to move it out of the way. This is the very frustrating catch 22 that I am trying to resolve. I am currently working with a fiber up pin with a dot behind it on the lens. This seems to be close to what my brain likes (for now). My 15 yard drill is my current aiming drill. It seems to have some promise.



    If "peeking" is looking around the dot to see the X, I'm guilty. My fiber is .029, and as mentioned above, is in front of a dot. I also have a .019 set up the same way. The process that you describe, if I understand it correctly, is one that requires the dot to enter the sight picture as you focus on the X. This is exactly the process that I have used for years. I have had some success with it but believe I have gotten all I can out of it. As cbrunson said somewhere; when the dot is n the middle the arrow also goes there. While that may not be an exact quote, I believe this is an accurate representation of his message. I know this can happen as I'm working to improve this ability. This may be a simple visual thing that needs to be identified and worked through. I may try a clarifier to blur out the dot some and clear up the spot. This may encourage my focus to search for the dot rather than the spot.
    I'm not sure of your eye dominance...especially after switch hitting. With both eyes open, or at least non-aiming eye squinted, you should be able to look "through" the dot. Also not sure how good your vision is, but I'm kind of a proponent of a bigger dot...like what CBrunson uses that covers most of the yellow. Just aim at the big ol' ocean of yellow...As long as the black dot doesn't touch red, you're in the 10 ring. Its a more relaxed way to "hold" than little itty bitty, hard to see dots holding on the spider or arrow holes.
    The kill is the satisfying, indeed essential, conclusion to a successful hunt. But, I take no pleasure in the act itself. One does not hunt in order to kill, but kills in order to have hunted. Then why do I hunt? I hunt for the same reason my well-fed cat hunts...because I must, because it is in the blood, because I am the decendent of a thousand generations of hunters. I hunt because I am a hunter.- Finn Aagard

  9. #6
    Think of it less as looking at the X and then covering it, and more of just putting the dot in the middle of the circles on the spot. It’s much easier to focus on the sight picture as a whole if you can, but if you have to look at one of them, look at the one you can see, not the one you are trying to cover.

    The one thing you don’t want to do is mistake error for inability. A bad shot is a bad shot alone. It’s not a bad game. Think about what you did or didn’t do correctly that caused the miss. I’m willing to bet nine times out of ten you missed because of a bad decision to let the shot go, rather than not being able to do it correctly. When you start looking at misses that way, you maintain confidence in being “able” to make a good shot, and punish yourself for not being disciplined. Work on being more disciplined. Focus on the ones you do right, and you will start to turn your frustration into drive.
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  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmuley View Post
    I'm not sure of your eye dominance...especially after switch hitting. With both eyes open, or at least non-aiming eye squinted, you should be able to look "through" the dot. Also not sure how good your vision is, but I'm kind of a proponent of a bigger dot...like what CBrunson uses that covers most of the yellow. Just aim at the big ol' ocean of yellow...As long as the black dot doesn't touch red, you're in the 10 ring. Its a more relaxed way to "hold" than little itty bitty, hard to see dots holding on the spider or arrow holes.
    I'm right eye dominant shooting lefty with both eyes open. Most of the time it's not an issue as I've done a pretty good job of training my left eye to take over. I have difficulty looking through the dot. Historically this has been a problem for me regardless of which side I shot from. When trying to focus on the X the dot becomes either a distraction or a blinder. Either way it doesn't work out looking at the X. Over the past couple of years I've shot through a nylon washer over my lens with different size holes. The smallest hole I use is 3/8" but I've been more comfortable with 1/2"-9/16". I've used a clarifier with a 6X lens in most of these applications with reasonably good results. The problem with this setup is hat it just isn't precise enough... resulting in a inconsistent performance at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    Think of it less as looking at the X and then covering it, and more of just putting the dot in the middle of the circles on the spot. It’s much easier to focus on the sight picture as a whole if you can, but if you have to look at one of them, look at the one you can see, not the one you are trying to cover.

    The one thing you don’t want to do is mistake error for inability. A bad shot is a bad shot alone. It’s not a bad game. Think about what you did or didn’t do correctly that caused the miss. I’m willing to bet nine times out of ten you missed because of a bad decision to let the shot go, rather than not being able to do it correctly. When you start looking at misses that way, you maintain confidence in being “able” to make a good shot, and punish yourself for not being disciplined. Work on being more disciplined. Focus on the ones you do right, and you will start to turn your frustration into drive.
    I think this is the direction I am heading. Sight picture isn't perfect yet but it's close. It's far from a natural thing for me to center the dot but I'm improving. I thank you for your very insightful contributions.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

  11. #8
    "It was pointed out that the first step in this process (I believe by cbrunson) is to accept that it can be done. At some point I did discover that I "could" hold in the middle, ..."

    Congrats on accepting that it can be done -- regardless of whether you can do it (yet) or not!

    "My focus is on holding but I am scoring each round. I started out with a 297 on Sunday but since shot a couple of 295's."

    Ok -- make up your mind -- which is important, the score or the group? And what is so enamoring about 15 yards?

    Think about the usual approach to combating target panic. [I'm not insinuating that you have target panic!]. Get close, work the execution. At the end of the day, it is all about getting a stable sight picture and not disturbing that sight picture while executing the shot. This comment implies that you must have an aimpoint!

    Move into 4 yards. Focus on drawing, letting the bow settle, and executing the shot while focusing only on the sight picture -- not grip pressure, not triggering the release, not movement in the sight picture. If ANYTHING distracts you from focusing on the stable sight picture -- let down. Choose to not shoot if you are distracted.

    As you do this, you will find you let down a lot of shots --even at only 4 yards. If you think about why you letdown, you will start to discover those little things that create instability in your sight picture.

    What I have learned from shooting close is how to pay attention to what "I" am doing. For example, am I being consistent in my grip on the bow? What happens if I have a tiny bit of pressure more toward a high wrist style than a low wrist style? How does that subtle shift affect the stability of the sight picture? How about that subtle shift of the grip toward or away from the lifeline in your palm? Have I got a little residual tension in my bow hand, or is it totally relaxed?

    Shooting close has also allowed me to really come to grips with dialing the draw length of the bow to match the draw length that my form requires. (Remember to make the bow fit you and not make yourself adapt to the bow.). How does changing the draw length by a single twist in the string or cable affect the stability of the sight picture? How about a half twist? In a similar manner, what about the addition of a single ounce on the stabilizers? How about changing the angle of your stabs by a single notch -- how did that change the stability of the sight picture?

    Speaking of shooting close, I have also learned how different grips on the release affect my ability to get a clean release without disturbing the stability of the sight picture.

    "I assume the answer is to let down when this happens but I am open to suggestions."

    This is key! Again, if ANYTHING disturbs the stability of the shot -- then let down. The bow doesn't settle? Let down! Anything creates a bobble after the sight picture stabilizes -- LET DOWN!

    You will start drilling a hole in the target. Not multiple holes, a SINGLE hole. And you will get to the point that you are not having to let down as much. But you will still have to let down. BUT shooting up close at 4 yards does not punish execution errors like shooting at longer ranges. You will probably force a few shots and still stay in that single hole.

    When you get to that point, you can start moving back. What you will find as you move back that tendency to force a shot now and then will result in misses. That will in turn help with three things. First, it will help you continue refining correcting the small issues that inhibit attaining a stable sight picture. Second, it will reinforce the mental discipline to only shoot the good shots and let down on the others. Third, it will create the mental confidence that you can, in fact, shoot great groups because you are focused on shooting, not on scoring! The scoring will come as a result of putting that great group in the right spot.
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  12. #9
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    "And what is so enamoring about 15 yards?"

    I'm working at 15 yards because I "see" the things you mentioned better. I've shot thousands of arrows at shorter distance but had difficulty identifying the good shots from the bad. The result was a lot of sloppy shots still hit the same hole. That said; with a specific goal of just working on my hold it may provide some benefits but I seem to be comfortable with 15 at this point and intend on sticking with it.
    With the exception of moving in, your entire post makes sense. I am working on letting down when the shot isn't perfect.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

  13. #10
    I started noticing that if I focus too much on my pin I couldn't find the middle of the target, that would tense me up even if I had a good hold. So, I started putting the pin on the X getting a good hold then slowly opening up the sight picture so I could reference where my pin was in the Yellow and bang off it goes. Keeps my brain occupied and the pin in the middle.

  14. #11
    You might want to try a smaller aiming reference. One that isn't covering most of the yellow and that covers just the ten ring, or maybe even smaller if need be. This will let you brain verify that the X is still there and will induce less movement into your shot because it's not having to move as much to uncover the X.

    You may also want to work on developing your shot around timing and work with your body's natural tendencies and patterns. Your body will move the pin/dot to see the X then move back to cover it in a subconscious pattern. For example you draw back on target, set the pin/dot, then start counting and just watching. 1,1000, 2,1000, 3,1000 and the x is covered. Then 4,1000, 5,1000 the body moves to verify the X is still there. Then 6,1000, 7,1000, 8,1000 the pin/dot covers the X again. Why fight that? Know your body's natural pattern and timing and then work to consistently fire your shot within that window. Adjust the tension of the button or the speed of the hinge to start the shot and happen within the window of opportunity. In my example here, 6-8 seconds.

    Here's a visual, but it goes over the same as above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEVUX4DdOqM
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  15. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
    "And what is so enamoring about 15 yards?"

    I'm working at 15 yards because I "see" the things you mentioned better. I've shot thousands of arrows at shorter distance but had difficulty identifying the good shots from the bad. The result was a lot of sloppy shots still hit the same hole. That said; with a specific goal of just working on my hold it may provide some benefits but I seem to be comfortable with 15 at this point and intend on sticking with it.
    With the exception of moving in, your entire post makes sense. I am working on letting down when the shot isn't perfect.
    I've been back on AT after a pretty lengthy hiatus...found the Competition Forum...and started on page 51 and worked my way to the front. You've been told lots of times of the benefits of the blind bale, blank bale, and short game. Whether you realize it or not you've fought against it every step of the way. Sloppy shots as quoted above...I'm guessing that's an execution problem (?). Biggest benefit comes from blank baling. I'm not talking flinging arrows at short range, but consciously focusing on specific elements of your form until they become ingrained in your shot process. Other than a form change, or as a tune up every now and then this is where your shot is made.

    It seems to me that you want to short-cut the benefit of the short stuff. Lets say we start with a brand new archer. I can think of no better way than to spend the first months to a year working on the following:

    1-Build form at the blank bale - build their form until every shot is performed 100% correct and they know the feeling of a good shot.
    2-introduce aiming at the short game - start short so they know they can sit in the middle of the X and only progress to a longer distance as they sit in the X AND perform their execution flawlessly
    3-Extend range as they incorporate the two elements together.

    There's many little steps along the way to find their preference for things like releases, release speed, aiming aperatures, etc, but the fundamentals are best built with no target and/or at close range.

    Being results oriented you accept a sloppy shot that hits the same hole at close range as proof that it doesn't work. Result orientation accepts a sloppy shot that hits the middle as acceptable....just ask yourself, is that something you want to try to repeat?

    Be more process oriented at close quarters and realize that a sloppy shot that hits the same hole is a sloppy shot and needs to be corrected. You have to know that its better to make a perfect shot and get a poor score than it is to make a sloppy shot and luck into a good score.

    If you're still making sloppy shots, how the heck is a better hold supposed to help you?
    The kill is the satisfying, indeed essential, conclusion to a successful hunt. But, I take no pleasure in the act itself. One does not hunt in order to kill, but kills in order to have hunted. Then why do I hunt? I hunt for the same reason my well-fed cat hunts...because I must, because it is in the blood, because I am the decendent of a thousand generations of hunters. I hunt because I am a hunter.- Finn Aagard

  16. #13
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    Great info I had the same problem years ago and I shoot a lens with no dot in it just the lens at 15 yards for a long time and then little small dot and then up to the right size dot that worked the best for me

  17. #14
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    After starting out pretty dismal today in warmup I pulled myself together and shot my first clean 150 from 15 yards. This was a definite sign of progress because in the past I've had difficulty identifying what was causing a bad performance... or the other side of the picture, having difficulty continuing a good performance. As soon as I decided to take over things went south. Today was different as I started out making bad shots but was able to think my way back into making good ones. The development of my mental representation is progressing nicely. I figure when I get to the point that I'm comfortable shooting 150's consistently I'll shoot for 300's. I'm in no hurry.
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  18. #15
    So I'm curious. Did you take anything from this thread that helped you today?
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  19. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCR_III View Post
    So I'm curious. Did you take anything from this thread that helped you today?
    Honestly, nothing here from a process perspective that I haven't heard or tried before. I did enjoy your float videos as they pretty much duplicated my float patterns quite well. I'd be interested in seeing how you have your camera set up.

    Perhaps I should clarify where I am at this point so folks will have a better understanding of what I'm looking for.

    1. I have a sight picture that I'm comfortable with (pic below). I've tried many different size variations of dots, circles, holes, etc., and this one is comfortable and soothing for me.
    2. Over the course of many years I've tried just about every flavor of short range training, from very close out to 15 yards. What I have not done with any of these methods until now is attempt to train myself to simply hold in the middle. Some of the methods I've tried are posted above as suggestions from folks trying to help. Currently, the combination of 15 yard shooting and placing my focus on centering seems to be helping. I have found in the past much difficulty in translating short range shooting into longer distances. This has been no secret as I've mentioned this difficulty many times in my posts. There is the possibility that placing my training focus on centering could be done at shorter distances with some success but currently I'm liking the 15 yard distance as it seems to allow me to translate what I am seeing at 15 yards to 20 yards.
    3. The biggest thing I've learned recently is that it is possible for me to actually hold in the middle. This knowledge is critical to my mental representation development. As this mental representation matures I will be better able to correct errors as they occur and/or eliminate them completely.

    My current training plan is to continue shooting 150 Vegas games until such time as I am shooting 150's comfortably. Once this comfort level is achieved I will raise my goal to shooting 300 Vegas rounds. When I reach some level of comfort shooting clean 300's from 15 I'll move to 20 and shoot 150 rounds... then 300's. Any suggestions as to how I might improve this plan would be helpful.
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  20. #17
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    At least you have a plan! Stick to it!


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    The kill is the satisfying, indeed essential, conclusion to a successful hunt. But, I take no pleasure in the act itself. One does not hunt in order to kill, but kills in order to have hunted. Then why do I hunt? I hunt for the same reason my well-fed cat hunts...because I must, because it is in the blood, because I am the decendent of a thousand generations of hunters. I hunt because I am a hunter.- Finn Aagard

  21. #18
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    Even though I'm early in this process I've noticed some distinct advantages of shooting at 15 yards over shorter training distances. These are observations based on my current and past experiences shooting short range. Your results may vary.

    1. The biggest advantage is that 15 yards is far enough that you don't get away with less than good shots. If I don't focus properly and make a decent shot I either miss or get a squeaker, simple as that. At shorter distances I have difficulty identifying subtle issues with my shot due to similar shot placement where at 15 these subtle errors show up on the target.
    2. What I'm seeing at 15 I can duplicate at 20. Shorter distances of 4-7 yards do not translate easily to real world distances... at least for me.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

  22. #19
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    Why very short range training can cause false confidence that isn't easily translated to real world distances.
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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
    Even though I'm early in this process I've noticed some distinct advantages of shooting at 15 yards over shorter training distances. These are observations based on my current and past experiences shooting short range. Your results may vary.

    1. The biggest advantage is that 15 yards is far enough that you don't get away with less than good shots. If I don't focus properly and make a decent shot I either miss or get a squeaker, simple as that. At shorter distances I have difficulty identifying subtle issues with my shot due to similar shot placement where at 15 these subtle errors show up on the target.
    2. What I'm seeing at 15 I can duplicate at 20. Shorter distances of 4-7 yards do not translate easily to real world distances... at least for me.
    You just made my point. When you learn all the lessons up close, including the mental aspect of letting down, you start moving back. As you move back, you will discover more refined, subtle changes to your gear/form to create and maintain that stable sight picture which you don't disturb in the process of executing the shot. And you will find it takes increasing levels of concentration to stay hooked up mentally and exercise the mental discipline to let down when the sight picture doesn't settle or gets disturbed.

    The key is to master each step out to longer and longer distances. I believe (not know) that the closer you are, the more likely the major improvements will come from tweaking bow fit, form, and execution process. Then as you move further out -- the amount of improvement through those avenues gets smaller and smaller. But as you move further and further out, the primary source of your improvement will come from your mental approach to the game.

    Your diagram in post #19 make the point perfectly of why the super short range does not punish errors nearly as much as longer ranges.

    I know you are working the Vegas target face, and I know you are committed to 15 yards because that yardage offers you benefits you don't get from closer in. Not long ago you posted your target face from 10 yards (post #153 on the "are skills natural developed or both" thread) -- and your own analysis of why you missed that one shot (which didn't have a bad result) was that you took a bad shot. Why? Just like the routine at shorter ranges -- you apply the same approach as you move out.

    Now look back at post #163 in that same thread. Sonny asks a great question -- was that hold or execution?

    Does it really matter? Create a stable sight picture and then execute without disturbing the sight picture. The remedy if it is a hold problem is to keep tweaking the bow fit and set up. The remedy if it is an execution problem is to forget the score -- focus on executing without disturbing the sight picture. And the remedy for the group size not being anywhere near that of your 10 yard effort is to exercise the mental discipline to let down any time the bow doesn't settle or you create a bobble in the sight picture.

    Again from your own analysis, in post #14:
    "After starting out pretty dismal today in warmup I pulled myself together and shot my first clean 150 from 15 yards. This was a definite sign of progress because in the past I've had difficulty identifying what was causing a bad performance... or the other side of the picture, having difficulty continuing a good performance. As soon as I decided to take over things went south. Today was different as I started out making bad shots but was able to think my way back into making good ones. The development of my mental representation is progressing nicely. I figure when I get to the point that I'm comfortable shooting 150's consistently I'll shoot for 300's. I'm in no hurry."

    You nailed it. When you decided to "take over" -- what happened to that stable sight picture? This is why I prefer to communicate the idea of creating a stable sight picture and not disturbing it during execution -- as opposed to "holding" the sight on the X and switching focus to firing the release.

    Note: we're getting at the same point, but approaching it from a different perspective. I really only have one question in my mind -- is the sight picture stable? Yes, keep going. No, let down.

    I agree with your self assessment and way forward listed in post #16. Keep hammering the 150 game till you master it. Then move on. When you master the 300 game at 15 yards (including the mastering the decision to let down), then increase the distance.
    Leadership is 24/7/365. Somebody is always watching even if it is only me.

    Archery Unlimited//Mathews Bows//Carter Releases//B-Stinger//Axcel Sight

  24. #21
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    8,228
    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun1 View Post
    Your diagram in post #19 make the point perfectly of why the super short range does not punish errors nearly as much as longer ranges.
    That is my point. The chart isn't based on theory or something I read. The farther you move out the bigger the error. My experience in real world shooting and practice validates these results.

    We can avoid any further debate on this if we look at it this way. I've already shot the shorter distances, gotten what I could out of it and have worked my way up to 15. That probably makes more sense to this discussion, which is about the benefits of 15 yard training.
    "There's no universal way to shoot; this is how I shoot and I hope you can find yours - Good Luck" ~ Reo Wilde 2015

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
    That is my point. The chart isn't based on theory or something I read. The farther you move out the bigger the error. My experience in real world shooting and practice validates these results.

    We can avoid any further debate on this if we look at it this way. I've already shot the shorter distances, gotten what I could out of it and have worked my way up to 15. That probably makes more sense to this discussion, which is about the benefits of 15 yard training.
    Wouldn't that also validate that at longer distances it is not possible to hold on the X? I've noticed how much weight the top archers use to help them hold on the X, but that extra weight causes fatigue to someone who isn't used to it, Chance said in a recent interview that he shoots 300-500 arrows a day! How long can you hold in the middle before fatigue sets in? Add extra weight to your bow (neutral weight front to back) and practice with it then take some off when you score, try to find a new balance between you and the bow.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by loujo61 View Post
    Wouldn't that also validate that at longer distances it is not possible to hold on the X? I've noticed how much weight the top archers use to help them hold on the X, but that extra weight causes fatigue to someone who isn't used to it, Chance said in a recent interview that he shoots 300-500 arrows a day! How long can you hold in the middle before fatigue sets in? Add extra weight to your bow (neutral weight front to back) and practice with it then take some off when you score, try to find a new balance between you and the bow.
    Once you break that mold of believing repitition is the key element of a good shot and become capable of self-diagnosis, you can make necessary adjustments on the fly and not have a detrimental impact to your shot process. But you MUST know what a good shot is before you can get there. You have to know you can hold it there, and what, if any little changes in stab weights, mass weight, draw length, etc, will do to affect your holding ability, execution, and then where the arrow lands. Not getting into that last one here, but the point is that once Paul or anyone else figures out how to identify a good sight picture that can be reasonably achieved and a good shot process, he is not done. There is no "set it and forget it". Not if he expects to improve.

    Through self-diagnosis, I can decide after a few practice ends, or even halfway through a game if I would benefit from taking one off the front or back, or even five. But that comes from doing it. Not arbitrarily, but with a purpose, knowing what is going to happen when I do it, because I know what my sight picture is telling me my body is doing. Just like adding a few clicks to the sight.

    What EPLC is doing, is discovering the relationship between sight picture and accuracy. Not comfort in execution. He needs to see that if he is disciplined enough to hold it there, it will go there. Even if the execution isn't perfect. You need distance for that.

    I know not too many buy into this concept because of a lot of what has been written or said, but it is definitely something worth exploring for anyone struggling to improve. Understanding what the sight picture is telling you is a major step in the direction of building confidence. You'll have a lot fewer of those "off days".

    You just have to be careful not to start the process too early in the learning phase, and develop tinkeritis. You have to know what a good shot is first.
    Hoyt
    Tru Ball/Axcel
    Gold Tip/B-Stinger

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    Once you break that mold of believing repitition is the key element of a good shot and become capable of self-diagnosis, you can make necessary adjustments on the fly and not have a detrimental impact to your shot process. But you MUST know what a good shot is before you can get there. You have to know you can hold it there, and what, if any little changes in stab weights, mass weight, draw length, etc, will do to affect your holding ability, execution, and then where the arrow lands. Not getting into that last one here, but the point is that once Paul or anyone else figures out how to identify a good sight picture that can be reasonably achieved and a good shot process, he is not done. There is no "set it and forget it". Not if he expects to improve.

    Through self-diagnosis, I can decide after a few practice ends, or even halfway through a game if I would benefit from taking one off the front or back, or even five. But that comes from doing it. Not arbitrarily, but with a purpose, knowing what is going to happen when I do it, because I know what my sight picture is telling me my body is doing. Just like adding a few clicks to the sight.

    What EPLC is doing, is discovering the relationship between sight picture and accuracy. Not comfort in execution. He needs to see that if he is disciplined enough to hold it there, it will go there. Even if the execution isn't perfect. You need distance for that.

    I know not too many buy into this concept because of a lot of what has been written or said, but it is definitely something worth exploring for anyone struggling to improve. Understanding what the sight picture is telling you is a major step in the direction of building confidence. You'll have a lot fewer of those "off days".

    You just have to be careful not to start the process too early in the learning phase, and develop tinkeritis. You have to know what a good shot is first.
    From post #20 above.

    The key is to master each step out to longer and longer distances. I believe (not know) that the closer you are, the more likely the major improvements will come from tweaking bow fit, form, and execution process. Then as you move further out -- the amount of improvement through those avenues gets smaller and smaller. But as you move further and further out, the primary source of your improvement will come from your mental approach to the game.

    CBrunson is spot on. His first paragraph captures the central points of my first post very concisely. However, he then goes beyond that in his subsequent discussion of adjustments on the fly. And in doing so, he makes the point of my second post. He argues making adjustments based on his mental approach to the game. He argues learnings the effects adjustments -- then being mentally tough enough to know he is making good shots but not getting the results he knows he can get.

    If he is shooting well but not getting the result, he already knows the adjustments to make.

    If he is not shooting well, he isn't just tinkering in hopes of doing better.

    He is absolutely correct that he has to know what a good shot is first. Well said!
    Leadership is 24/7/365. Somebody is always watching even if it is only me.

    Archery Unlimited//Mathews Bows//Carter Releases//B-Stinger//Axcel Sight

  28. #25
    A few years ago I asked Jim Despart on here about his float and he said his pin very seldom left the ten ring on a Vegas. Isn't trying to hold on the X different than having the ability to hold on the X? I do understand the value of a good sight picture, like when you make a great fifty yard shot (3D) then move up to twenty five and miss the ten ring, that is definitely a mental thing - When your aiming at a 3D target fifty yards away your pin is taking up a lot more area on that target but your point of aim is finer because you also have the out line of the animal for reference - Up at twenty yards I can hold on the X but sometimes I get caught up in that hold and loose focus of the broader picture of where the pin is at on the animal. I can shoot a much better Vegas round by referencing my pin to the center of the Yellow than I can by TRYING to hold the pin on an X. I feel that I am ABLE to hold the pin close to the center of the Yellow but UNABLE to hold it on the X. Is being able to hold on the inside of the X achievable for everyone? Or, are the rest of us older less able archers always going to be just trying to hold on the X. I watched Dee Wilde and other older shooters at Lancaster and by the looks of the end of their stabilizers they had movement beyond the X, they still can hit the X though.

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