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The "AUTOMATIC" shot?

9K views 219 replies 30 participants last post by  Bobmuley 
#1 ·
Talking to a 60X local shooter a couple of weeks ago I was reminded of something I have heard over and over again. "The shot has to be automatic". No matter what you read or hear about anyone performing at a high level (regardless of what) you hear this statement. As I think about this "automatic" shot I have to admit I really don't understand it. It confuses me. As I examine my own shot I also realize that not much that is going on is truly automatic. Sure there have been days where it was, and my best days were the result. I just don't know enough about it to do it at will.

I think this would be a really good discussion here... not so much as looking for a fix for me, but more of a detailed discussion on the subject.
 
#2 ·
Not much detail here: You can only think of one conscious thing at a time. You can choose to do one of two things. Think about aiming or think about parts of your shot.

I don't know how to automate aiming, but I can automate my shot.
 
#6 ·
To me it means building muscle memory and subconscious timing. Developing your shot execution to where you know exactly what it feels like before you ever start it. Picking a certain way that works best for you to shoot and then doing that every single time. This will let you focus less on your shot execution and more on just holding the pin/dot in the middle. Your subconscious fires the shot based off muscle memory to know that, "Okay, this shot is about to fire....Get pin in the middle.... Pin is in the middle..Fire" as the internal drive. With my example this isn't you consciously thinking okay I'm floating on target and the pin is off the middle and I need to push/pull it back there. This is you running your shot the same exact way you do every time and letting it happen. This is why I developed my shot around a timing window as to when my body steadies itself to the middle the most consistently.

The aiming part is something a lot of people struggle with. They haven't spent the time to adjust their draw length and loop length to the smallest amounts to get the perfect shoulder positioning and get the perfect leverage. You have to put in the time to do certain things to aim well, or you'll spend your time aiming excitedly. Meaning you'll be all over the place and stressing yourself to get back to the middle and choke it there and make yourself worse.

You spend the time not shooting and just holding and finding what works best for you. Find out which muscles to flex and hold tight, where to position the bow shoulder, the best weight set up on stabilizers, the loop height that gives you the right aiming characteristics during your shot execution, the speed of the release/trigger tension that gives you the steadiest hold and smoothest execution that doesn't disturb your aim, and so on and so on until you've put in the work to be able to hit the middle as often as you're capable.

When you do the above work, you allow yourself two things; you know what your float will look like and you can accept it and you can have the confidence that your float pattern will be around the center and all that's left is to execute and run your shot.

You have to pick one thing at a time though to work through and commit to learning to a subconscious state. It's not easy, it's not quick, and it's what separates the ones who struggle more from those that don't; but it gives you your automatic shot.
 
#7 ·
I worked with a new shooter this weekend, at twenty yards I noticed that he wasn't comfortable aiming so we moved up to ten yards, I told him to just hold in the white (5 spot) until his float got sloppy then let down. After we did the holding drill I told him to just get a good hold and pull through and execute the shot, I noticed that as he pulled he would lighten up the pressure on his trigger finger and get apprehensive with his posture. I explained to him that our eyes are very good at finding the center, that he needed to trust his float (hold) and trust his ability to line up the sight picture (aim) and that - that part of his shot routine needed to become "automatic". Next, I told him to get a good hold on the white and as he was holding I told him to look through his sight picture at the X and pull through the shot, instantly his apprehension went away. Trust your shot, focus on the middle and let your float, sight picture, and execution become one and the same (automatic).
 
#200 ·
What a man I just met him at a archery shop he saw me struggling and he offered me help he did that for 3weeks about an hour helping me out I am getting better and his buddy is allways willing to help me out also trust your shot I can't wait to sight in my yards so I could 3d shoot with him but the wait will be worth it thanks lou
 
#8 ·
Your shot can not be automatic if you do not have a shot. By this I mean one needs to train a shot sequence , a very detailed shot sequence that can be compartmentalized. The compartments allow you to understand where your shot is breaking down on the line. ( game day is not the same as practice day , nor is your shot ) if you do not make adjustments that allow you to shoot the way you handle game day.
Automation in your shot is achieved via countless hours of smart training , notes and small adjustments. The learning curve becomes very subtle , but long , very long. There is no short cut , there is no natural talent.
Training your brain to shoot single holes dead center X Creates automation in your aiming - Yes I said automation in your aiming. Aiming is the devil on fix distance competition shooting. People spend way too much time aiming. It simply creates stress , mental stress and physical stress.
When do you start your aiming ? how long can you aim , exactly how long does your great shot take from step one of your shot sequence until closure on your shot ( every shot needs closure , then reset)
After you find your shot , train your shot , you will find automation , once your brain trust your shot you know your gonna blow the center out of the face , aiming automaton is achieved -
 
#10 ·
Your shot can not be automatic if you do not have a shot....
^^^Truth!!!

The rest of the post is excellent too, but I wanted to emphasize this point. Jacob & Blue X have posted about this too. You have to find your shot, then you can repeat until you almost can't do it any other way. A written shot sequence is the framework for this. Lots of discipline and lots of arrows, but I believe that it is worth it.

Allen
 
#9 ·
One thing I like to do that helps me is to set up a target at 10 yards with a medium target on it and set up a target at 60'yards with the same size face on it .Take one shot at 10 yards and one at 60 yards aiming is easy at 10 yards and it takes work at 60 yards this helps me get my shot execution down and aiming down so I doint over hold . Most of the time I doint move the sight just leave it on 60 yards just put the target top of bag . It helps with center up on peep sight you see it move at 10 yards
 
#11 ·
Our brains love autopilot, because in most situations it’s pretty handy. It lets you chew gum and talk on the phone without having to think about it, freeing our brains for more important things - like driving. When it comes to developing ones skills however, autopilot is the enemy, because it creates plateaus. Plateaus are irritating to say the least.

When developing talent you gotta look for the "sweet spot". Embracce the power of repetition, so the action becomes fast and fluent. This means creating a practice space that enables you to reach and repeat, stay engaged, and improve your skills over time. Staying in the sweet spot creates positive re-enforcement for skill development.

Like stated earlier - you can't be automatic if you don't have a good shot sequence. It is developed over time.

Or just change releases.


.02
 
#12 ·
GREAT TOPIC!!

Interesting insights so far...

My $.02.

It's all about developing YOUR shot sequence, from loading the arrow, setting your grip, drawing, aiming or floating, to the almost subconscious firing and follow thru. It's a physical activity requiring muscle memory and training, but above all else, starting within and controlled by the mind. That's why target panic confounds all of us at one time or another and is so tough to beat.

After shooting for 40+ years, this is what I've come to realize after developing various forms of target panic. I've never shot indoors until this past winter, only 3d, and have worked hard to make a few changes in my form and shot sequence. Shot my best round of the year yesterday, and with the exception of about 6 or 8 shots, all found the yellow on a Vegas face. Thinking of the round and how more and more shots felt automatic, I can say I truly believe what I'm writing. As I look at the score card, sitting here typing this, I can recall exactly what each of those bad shots felt like. I'm not a ten ring shooter and maybe never was, but I'm seeing more tens while my goal this winter is to keep the arrows in the yellow. To me, with my bifocal dependent vision, that is a reasonable goal.

A while back, I felt part of my problem was not being able to cover the spot with my sight pin. I pulled the pin from my HHA and replaced it with a modified crosshairs that encircled the yellow ring. I posted a thread with photos and a few league shooter tried it also and liked it. After shooting two or three round a week for ten weeks, i've replaced the pin and can now float the pin on the spot and execute my firing sequence with confidence. I've unlearned the bad habits and reinforced good habits in the entire shot sequence. I'm far from perfect, but shooting well is becoming less 'work' and a lot more fun. Some recommended a hinge or thumb release as the only cure. I have found that I can shoot my thumb release better than before and some days just as good as the index release. It's more comfortable form-wise, but gets away from me more often than the index. I've not given up on the thumb but will continue to shoot both until the thumb takes over as my primary release. Another reasonable goal that is within sight by alternating between practice rounds.

Ours is a mental game first and foremost. I saw a show, maybe on Discovery, dealing in general with our brains and how they work. They wired a couple of top archers to an EEG to measure brain waves as they went thru the shot sequence. There was a measurable and distinct change between two types of waves as they aimed and fired. The shot sequence started with one wave higher than the other and as they aimed the two waves reversed position in frequency and amplitude. They called this in layman terms as 'in the zone'. They then put a few amateur archers to the same test and they did not measure the same way, with erratic accuracy the result. They then trained the amateurs to hold their fire until their brain waves reversed in the same way as the pros, the result being much higher degrees of accuracy.

This is scientific proof of and measurable definition of what can also be called an 'automatic' shot.
 
#52 ·
Good thread.
I have never asked anybody what their thought process is when they're making a shot and this has provided some good idea to that point.
I had done just that a few years ago. I wanted to know what some of the top Pros and Amateurs thought while executing their shots (for the record, everyone asked was a multiple National Champion). A few of the shooters (Tim G, Frank P and Jesse B) commented that they did not know what they were thinking. Two made a joke about it and stated they thought of how they would beat each other (brothers Wilde there). Two, Larry H and Mike L, stated that if you're thinking, you're not shooting your bow.

This confirms that anyone who really wishes to excel in the sport has to have their shot down to the point where it does occur automatically and that means hours upon hours in practice establishing not only the muscle memory needed, but perhaps even more importantly, the confidence to "let go" and allow the shot to happen without interference.

This will be my focus this year...
 
#14 ·
Found it.

Science channel Thru the wormhole with Morgan Freeman. Episode titled 'can our minds be hacked?'

Here's a preview link, but I'm gonna find the full episode and watch again.

http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/can-our-minds-be-hacked-2/

Googled 'archers wired to EEG' and found studies using mobile wearable EEGs for analysis and training in sports, but you need advanced medical degrees to understand all the twenty dollar words they use.
 
#17 ·
Making something automatic sounds really fun and magical, but you really have to think about results. This is a results based sport, as most are. If you are functioning at peak performance then it would certainly make sense to try to make it happen with little influence from your psyche, but if you are not performing absolutely perfect, and seek to improve beyond your current abilities, trying to make your current shot process automatic is putting the cart before the horse.

One man’s waste is another man’s treasure – I can relax and go brain dead and keep them in the white all day long. There are many guys out there that would love to be able to say that. There are those that can do the same with the X ring. At what point do you accept that your ability has peaked, and stop actively trying to improve?
 
#18 ·
...At what point do you accept that your ability has peaked, and stop actively trying to improve?
Never.

But we need to keep in mind the end game. A couple of lower scores or temporary dip in average does not mean that it won't work out better in the long run. We don't have to be Gillingham about it and change multiple things at once...every day...but, we should always work to get better. I also agree with RCR that it's best to limit improvement areas to one thing at a time (think grip, release action, etc.).
 
#19 ·
Automatic? Sunday 3D, of my best shots the pin was where it needed to be and I don't remember "pulling the trigger." I didn't have trouble getting on target, but when I thought about my release....Well....
 
#31 ·
I've known a few like you...

Change of subject - I always wondered about some of the top trigger punchers (Dietmar and Tim for examples) and think. If pulling through a back tension can be done "subconsiously" (read "automatic"); then why can't an index finger be subconscious/automatic as well?
 
#22 ·
First, let's assume you do know how to shoot the bow well, releasing smoothly.

Next, you focus on the shot, and feel comfortable with your pin floating over it.

Then, wham! The arrow has left the bow without your even thinking about pulling the trigger. That's automatic. That's your subconscious mind doing it for you the way you want it to.
 
#28 ·
Although you may think your shot is "automatic" I have found it really doesn't become automatic quite that easy. I feel everything with the bow has to be about as perfect as it can get, because your mind has to be at ease and calm. Most people because of the pin movement have a start/stop that is battling within their brain during this process. Once they got the DL, Loop, Holding weight, and bars set so they see the most perfect sight picture they can imagine the shot will not be automatic.

Because of all that above, I think very few people have a true automatic shot.

I know I don't - I am going through changes and because of that internal struggles with the shot within my own "system"
 
#36 ·
If anyone thinks there is no such thing a an "automatic" shot then explain why every sports performance book I read says it is a must? Also, when LeBron James shoots a 3 right at the buzzer, how much thinking is going on?
 
This post has been deleted
#37 ·
Even punching a trigger or controlling a shot is an automatic response.

I've got a lot of research on the topic based on psychology reports and I can assure that it's an automated response, no matter what we're doing. There's different levels of it, yes; but still automated.
 
#39 ·
its even automatic when you shoot a deer if you practice the right way.the buck I killed this year I only remember the pin on buck`s center of lungs and buck running away with his tail down and tipping over. but I still can not remember the releasing of the arrow or the arrow moving out of the bow it was all automatic.
 
#43 ·
Practice begins when you get it right. This is a moment when you reflect on what just happened and you strive to go there every time. When this is done over and over and over - you can become automatic. Anytime a conscious thought on what you are doing enters your mind - you are no longer automatic. Until that point of perfection is reached auto-pilot is your enemy.


.02
 
#44 ·
I am convinced that a great deal of the argument regarding "automatic" shots and "subconscious" shooting, has risen due to the popularity of the indoor game. Here you have a totally controlled environment, a standard distance, only 3 target options with 2 of those being identical with the exception of one scoring ring. Bottom line, perfect repetition is what scores perfectly at 20 yards indoors on whichever target you choose. Nothing changes, no variables. Now, throw in the fact that competitively, I don't know the numbers, but a vast majority of archers (and even some coaches,) this is all they know, again, competitively, because that's all they do other than maybe fling a few arrows in the back yard or basement at ten yards. Nothing wrong with that, indoor archery has brought a lot to the sport, Vegas is probably the largest archery event in the world. That's awesome.

Now, the value of the short game or 20 yards indoors to develop a shot, or "process" can't be disputed. However, there's a whole lot more to archery than the 20 yard game. If you want to talk about "automatic" or "subconcious" shots it should probably remain in theory. It may be a good theory. But when it comes to archery games other than "indoor" the value of an "automatic" shot diminishes a great deal. Why? Because of all the variables thrown in, the elements, different distances, different target sizes at those distances, lighting, footing, the list goes on.

I will just challenge anyone that thinks that you shoot your best by shooting "automatically" to step on an unfamiliar field course and see how that works out for you. It just, will, not, work. You try to take some text book "voodoo" approach of "automatic" shooting to the field (and even 3D) course you are going to experience an amazing failure rate. Why? Because you are being introduced to specific conditions constantly that you could not possibly have experienced enough times previously to make "automatic." You could not have experienced that precise footing, with that exact light, with that exact wind, target size and distance the thousands of times it takes to make it automatic, and do it sometimes from four different stakes on a target. Bottom line, you have to think.

Now, what I have just said in no way minimizes the voodoo approach to the short game or indoor archery. I am just pointing out that due to indoor archery's popularity some of these theories are becoming somewhat gospel. They are not gospel. Some of these theories work to a degree on a flat field @ 50m, some of them work in the Olympic venue as well I'm sure but have no experience with it. However, in the field and 3D world these theories value diminishes greatly. The theories can assist you in developing a shot, of course, but when uncontrolled variables are introduced you have to be able to think through the variables in order to translate that shot process into desired results. If you don't your "automatic" will cause you to miss a shot on the 35 fan of the field course. :)

My .02. Hope someone finds it to be a "contribution."
 
#47 ·
I've always enjoyed the variability of field and 3D shoots. It's more of a thinking man's game. However, I still think that on most every occasion there's 3 seconds of an automatic shot. Things that may take me out of my automatic shot are extreme contortions for super steep up and downhillers. These tend to be "working" shots for me. I have to work through those. The other biggie is gusting wind. A normal breeze or steady mild wind I can still rely on more automation, but the gusts make me once again work "during" the shot.

For me at least, taking into account the variable conditions and "thinking" occurs before. I think about setting the site to the cut, footing, wind, bubble, etcetera before "the shot".
 
#46 ·
I was a happy and confident shooter until the day when I went to a indoor league night and saw my first pro indoor guy, I had no idea how bad I really was and how freaking awesome a pro indoor shooter was.

For the next 3 years I forced my hinge to fire and I forced my sight pin to stay on the x and I actually beat that indoor guy a couple times when he dropped a couple x's and I shot 59x. I shot around 40 or so 60x games in practice during those years in practice only and in competition with other people I only shot as high as 59x.

"I Can Not Do That Again"

Those three years of indoor were about the most horrible experience of my life, I lived in the shooting range pizzed off and trying to get myself to get pumped up to shoot scoring rounds and when I went to competitions I couldn't really socialize or enjoy the time there, I just focused on forcing myself to force the shot to break at the right time and force my sight pin to stay in the freaking x all the freaking time.

Just typing out this makes me not want to shoot remembering how horrible it felt.
 
#49 ·
The best winter of shooting I have ever had was a few years ago after I have given up those Forcing Approaches, I spent two or so years doing nothing but shooting perfect shots. I would shoot until I had a beyond perfect feeling shot and then I would spend weeks learning how to duplicate that feeling over and over until I felt a even better feeling perfect shot and then I would make it my new normal shot. My whole goal back then was to get to the point where every time I pulled back the shot felt exactly the same as the last one, I got to the point where I could do it around a hundred times in a row without feeling one shot that felt different. During that winter once I got there I could stay in a 5-spot x all week long every shot.

The biggest difference between now and then is I don't shoot indoor every day, for me I never have been able to take days off and be dead on perfect. When I shoot every day for 3 hours or so I can carry over those feelings to the next day and not skip a beat but when I skip days it just fades away. I don't change my execution just because I take a few days off but it is the perfect feeling that fades away.

Right now for me it is coming down to both of my daughters being in multiple sports and I have game nights three nights or more per week so I may only get two nights of shooting indoor.

So in my experience I have totally forced myself to be a strong shooter who could compete but hated every moment and I have also trained myself into becoming a smooth strong shooter that actually enjoys his time on the shooting line. Right now I am choosing to enjoy every minute with buddies and shoot smoothly and have a good time and once I get past the next few years of ball games I hope to have the desire to train each and every day again and shoot at my potential. I am looking forward to it.
 
#54 ·
You know, after an intense head to head or shoot off I've never once heard a top shooter say "all that movement, all that shaking, it was just automatic." I have on the other hand heard them say, quote; "I just focused on my process to keep my mind off it." It may be just me, but I don't define "automatic" as thinking about my process (check list) to keep my mind off it.
 
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