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Foot Position Vs. Waist Position?

9K views 77 replies 25 participants last post by  nuts&bolts 
#1 ·
When shooting from an open stance, is your waist / chest directly over your feet, or pointed towards the target (90deg.)? I've been experimenting and it seems that I'm a little steadier when my chest / waist is at 90 degrees to target. The same is true when I close my stance a bit. Is this an indication that the DL is a tad long?
 
#2 ·
Your hips should be open to the target with feet at approx. 40 degree angle and about shoulder width apart.
At set up, you turn your torso (coil) away from the target while keeping your hips open towards the target.
This strengthens your back and engages your back tension.
This will make your bow arm through your shoulders line up in a straight line for a very steady stance.
It's kind of hard to do at first if you're not used to it. But with training it becomes easier.

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#3 ·
Feet & hips should be at the same angle to the target. All twisting should be in your core. Watch the videos of the Olympic shooters to see how they do it. It sets up a tension that is a little steadier during execution.

Some can't do it. I'm old and beat up. When I tried it, my back hurt so much that I thought I would have to give up archery. I went back to a square stance and it cleared up my back pain in a couple of days.

Allen
 
#4 ·
Subscribed. I have been wondering the same thing, as I've been playing around with stance and body position and bone on bone stuff. I'm interested to see what everyone says. XForce Girl, is the "coiling" technique how most people tend to set up? Could you explain it a little more? Is this more for recurve? Thanks!
 
#7 ·
Hi,
The coiling I would say is not how most do it. Unless they are familiar with the National training system. It was developed for recurve but is also valid for compound shooters. I worked with Linda Beck, (compound dream team coach) and she is very good.
Imagine at full draw, your hips are pointed towards the target(approx. 40 degree) Your bow, bow arm, and shoulders make a straight line to the target. The coiling makes your back very strong and solid because your back muscles are twisted around your spine (coiled). (imagine wringing a towel)
Your shoulders should be down and your hips tucked, lower rib cage, making your back as flat as possible.

I have been training with a coach via Skype on this very thing. And using what I have learned on my own form. I have to tell you, must shots are much more solid and consistent. The whole "feel" of my shooting has improved. When I follow the steps and do what I'm supposed to, I feel like I cannot miss.
 
#5 ·
are you shooting compound or recurve?
 
#6 ·
I'm shooting compound. I remember hearing about the set up you use. I thought it might have been on a recurve sight though. I'm looking for some kind of solution. To you coil away from the target like that so that you come to rest and hold at your natural point of aim and aimed at the target? Thanks!
 
#8 ·
Thanks! That's a great explanation. I'm still a little confused about setting it up and drawing so you come into the body position described in the above post.... So would you basically start with squaring your shoulders to the target and using a bit of an open stance... then lift the bow so it's pointing left of the target (for a right-handed shooter) and start your draw ... and then as you draw the bow you "coil" your back so you are no longer pointing to the left of target but are now pointing the arrow directly at it when settled at full draw? What is the setup process to get your back coiled and everything else aligned as you described? Is the coil primarily performed during the drawing process?
Thanks very much for your knowledge.
 
#9 ·
No the coil is performed at the set up with the recurve before you draw. a bit later with compound do to the particulars with the bow,

Set stance, Nock, Set Hook (release aid) and grip. then Set-up (raise the bow, coil), then draw to load, then anchor, then transfer/hold, then expand then aim and then release/follow through.
 
#10 ·
Do you have any pics or a diagram? 40 degrees off a line perpendicular to the target? I find this interesting. So your feet are 40 degrees, what angle is your waist?
 
#11 ·
I like all three of my areas to match up, shoulders and hips and feet. I set my good shooting posture just standing there and then once I draw the bow my goal is to still have that good posture. Shooting indoor and in my back yard this is easy to accomplish but on a tough footing 3d course sometimes you have to put your feet in the only spot you can find and then twist the rest of the body to take the shot, that is the only time I allow it to happen.
 
#13 ·
Something like Padgett has here. Weight fully down on both feet. Lead foot may be back from the back foot just a tad. Turning my head, addressing the target I like to see it centered. Tried this a couple of times and it seems my upper torso slightly turns to the target. The thing is, I practice one shot drills a lot and my stance is just like second nature.
3D, yes, the footing is not all that great sometimes. I find what I can to get my feet down, like in down. For slight down hill or up hill shots I like to spread my feet to get a center of gravity effect. It's been a long time since a saw fence post and safety belt to keep from falling at the stake..
 
#12 ·
I line up my toes with the center of the target. (more specifically my pinky toe) My body is facing the wall (or the shooter next to me). When I was in the military, the fundamentals of marksmanship stresses "bone support and muscle relaxation"... It works for me, maybe some others not so much....
 
#14 ·
I'm tend to lean toward what x-force girl is explaining, more open on windy days and a little more square on calmer days or for indoor but for the most part the same.

For me if I were to set up as if at anchor and look down my head is behind my zipper away from the target towards my release side, maybe 2-3 inches from my back foot. Probably about 80% of my weight is on my back side centered over the foot, leg, hip, with the pressure evenly distributed throughout my foot. My front foot does have some weight on it, but I've found more rigidity in my lower core if I add pressure/torque to the ground with the ball/big toe of my front foot. Think of the feeling you get if you stand square then turn your shoulders 90* to the right. That's an exaggeration of what I'm feeling of course but it helps you get the idea. I've found that for me this works very well for both recurve and for compound shooting, even on uneven ground. Your mileage may vary....
 
#16 ·
Assuming we use one of the following shooting positions as viewed from the top, I would think that to have your waist directly above your feet will create a twist from the waist to the chest / shoulder area... That twist one tor three bales to the left when shooting 20 yards. Unless your name is Sergio...then its four bales to the right. I think "we" can get away with it because of the low holding weights relative to recurve.

Shoulders are mostly in a position between your waist positions in the drawing.
 
#20 ·
LINEAR draw versus ANGULAR draw. If you try to do the COIL, to get to full draw and anchor, it helps to THINK that your release elbow travels in a circle, to get to the full draw final position. SWING your release elbow like the edge of a door.
 
#21 ·
I don't have time to look or I'd provide the link but if you watch some Brady Ellison shooting (assuming he hasn't changed) you can see that he does the coil type draw.

I can't describe it better than what's already been described. What I can say is that when it's done properly drawing becomes less stressful/less of an effort because you're using more of your back. And when you get aligned you tend to get more "locked in". Additionally, it helps put the loaded mass more over your center of gravity giving you a better balance.
 
#23 ·
Thanks for all the great posts. There's great info here.
As far as the NTS (National Training Sytem), most of their recommendations are geared towards recurve shooters. Now I've heard they are working on a compound version in conjunction with Larry Wise and others. I wonder if they'll recommend a different position / alignment for us wheel bowers?
 
#26 ·
Linda adapts this to compound very well. If your shoulders already nearly align with the target with your current form, it's a simple matter of turning the bow shoulder into the bow during the draw. It promotes the locked in feel furyflier mentions.


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#28 ·
Thanks all of this information. I am working on this shooting Barebow Recurve. When I get it right, I feel it. When I get it wrong, I shoot right or short draw!
This week, I went to shooting closed/nuetral stance to eliminate those variables, but I do feel better with the coiled draw. I'll feel even better when I quit screwing it up
 
#29 ·
Tried this coiling with my compound today and it does seem to work. Now I do have a question, do you change the angle of your open stance as distance increase or do you always keep the same offset regardless? By distance i mean 50 out to 80 which is what I was shooting today. I Tried to maintain the same offset but at 80yds I did not seem as stable trying to hold on a low dot (now I could have been getting tired) it seemed a bit easier to hold more perpendicular. New at this coiling will continue to practice it as I can see the benefit.
 
#30 ·
I don't really change my stance.
The stance is more for balance and being connected to the floor/ground.
I have played with my stance to get the best position but once I found it I repeated it every time.


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#32 ·
Drawing Plant Diagram


So if I'm following this correctly, in order for the shoulders to feel that "locked in" sensation I need to have them somewhere between Fig. A and Fig. B?
Also, since my hips will be directly above my feet in an open stance, they will be facing left of the target, whereas my shoulders will either face the target (Fig. A), or just right of the target (Fig. B). Both instances will produce that coiled feel. Correct?
 
#34 ·
View attachment 5925953

So if I'm following this correctly, in order for the shoulders to feel that "locked in" sensation I need to have them somewhere between Fig. A and Fig. B?
Also, since my hips will be directly above my feet in an open stance, they will be facing left of the target, whereas my shoulders will either face the target (Fig. A), or just right of the target (Fig. B). Both instances will produce that coiled feel. Correct?
Figure B is the correct answer.
You need a straight line from bow hand through both shoulders. Any bend in that area can cause muscle fatigue and inconsistency.

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#33 ·
Just think, Rev. Once you get it figured out you may have to go back and re-tune your bow ;)
 
#38 ·
That is correct.
As someone else mentioned, the alignment of the arm and shoulders must happen first.
It's not easy at first to coil without your hips wanting to follow your torso.
It takes practice and training.
Being a bit older than some archers, my range of movement wasn't what I needed to achieve holding.
But with practice I've gotten much better at it.

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#37 ·
With all due respect to KSL, and I have a lot, the importance of the coil is much smaller than achieving alignment of the shoulders with the bow arm, and the overall timing of the motion of the shot. Virtually everyone can get a good line supporting the bow arm. Most can bet the drawing elbow pretty close to line with the arrow. From that position, different people with different muscular development and body geometry may have differences in what muscles they use when, but the point is that we are best exploiting the skeleton to support the forces. The "coil" is certainly useful in getting there, but one must get efficient alignment first. I have found it useful to start rebuilding my form from a square stance and am gradually working on opening the stance back up to where I once shot, working the "coil" more into my shot sequence. It does not have to be as extreme as advertised, and I think it confuses learning the scapular movements and alignment for many.
 
#39 ·
This morning I tried this "coil" method, and WOW, it feels S-T-R-A-N-G-E indeed. It felt like I was playing the game Twister. No doubt everything new feels weird at first, but this pretzel-like twisting is bizarre. Now I'm not trying to argue the point, but I'm looking for the reasoning behind this. I thought the best form comes from a relaxed, natural stance? Doesn't this seem to go contrary to that idea? I also wonder how much of this method, that was birthed in the "recurve arena," can truly carry over to the compound shooter?

Finally, (again not arguing), how many world class compound shooters are shooting this way? I'd like to see some vids of this...
 
#41 ·
Reverend,
It does feel strange at first. the theory is like the twisting of a towel (spine) making it strong and rigid. Each step defines a specific group of muscles and movements to build one the previous making a very strong system.

It was developed for recurve but coaches Beck and Wise have written and developed the system for compound.
Relaxed and natural is fine for hunters who only care about one shot but it's not very repeatable. By having specific defined steps in a system the shooter can make a more repeatable shot.
 
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