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Thread: Which is more "difficult"

  1. #1
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    Which is more "difficult"

    I was thinking about this the other day at the range.
    If we shoot 50m and 30m on 80cm target faces and 90 and 70 on 122cm faces. Are the 70m and 30m rounds similar in difficulty as to target target size/distance? If so then wouldn't shooting 70m and 50m at practice be a better training? More walking though.



  2. #2
    If you want to be good at FITA, shoot every distance.

  3. #3
    Master the longer distance and you won't have any trouble shooting the shorter ones. Nobody I know spends much time shooting 30 or 50 unless they just don't have the distance to practice. There is no trick to 30 that you can't learn at 90M or 70M
    SuperX

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperX View Post
    Master the longer distance and you won't have any trouble shooting the shorter ones. Nobody I know spends much time shooting 30 or 50 unless they just don't have the distance to practice. There is no trick to 30 that you can't learn at 90M or 70M

    90% of the time at 90Meter was the adage of perhaps the best FITA round shooter ever. With the advent of the olympic round its probably 90% at 70
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  5. #5
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    50m:80cm=70m:112cm.
    SO, proportionally 50m should be harder than 70m. But you have to include weather effects setup tuning, form etc... And the longer you go away from the target the more tuning and form issues show up.
    He who controls the past commands the future, He who commands the future, conquers the past.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canjapan2003 View Post
    I was thinking about this the other day at the range.
    If we shoot 50m and 30m on 80cm target faces and 90 and 70 on 122cm faces. Are the 70m and 30m rounds similar in difficulty as to target target size/distance? If so then wouldn't shooting 70m and 50m at practice be a better training? More walking though.
    I always feel that 90M and 50M are the two to practice at with the majority of the time spent at 90M. I think a lot of people have trouble with the "transition" targets where you go down in size.

  7. #7
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    Practice at 90 is nothing like practice at 50, or 70 for that matter. I just started playing around with this FITA stuff this year and there is a huge difference between shooting 90 and 50, no matter what size your target is. When you mess up a bit at 50 the miss is not nearly as profound as at 90. Sure you are shooting a larger target at 90 but there is no mathamatiacal rule for bad shots. Lots of things affect that shot as you get out in that range. Look at the scores from nationals. The scores at 90m were vastly different from 50m and the 70m scores are not the same as the 30m. If you want to be good at shooting 90m, you gotta practice at 90m.

  8. #8
    50 I think is a tough distance. It's easy to do well in the morning at 90 and 70m, and then after a long break, get to 50m and have a tough time. It's quite common to see stellar 70m scores followed by a score at 50 that's lower, it's rare to see it the other way around. Technically the scores should be around the same more or less if your shooting your full potential.

    Obviously practice at all distances, each has their own unique challenge, yes even at 30m, when it's usually at the end of the day, your tired, maybe a little cranky from not doing so well at 50m, so even though the target is huge, it's still easiest to have a mental hiccup.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperX View Post
    Master the longer distance and you won't have any trouble shooting the shorter ones. ...
    May not totally be true. I'm sure there are other archers out there beside me who favour a certain upper angle and find it easier to get through the clicker then. For example, I used to shoot better at 70 metres than 30 simply because I unconsciously preferred the upper body to waist relation at that distance. When I said shoot better, I didn't mean get higher scores. I ain't that much of a freak. Just that I got through the clicker easier with no apparent form anomaly to make that possible.

    Anyway, to answer Canjapan2003's question, it ain't the same as long as your arrow doesn't spend the same time in the air as when you're actually shooting the distance you're supposed to. In a way, it's similar to when folks started thinking about shrinking the size of the gold zones to be what it'd appear when viewed from the shooting line but shooting them at short distances.

  10. #10
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    Think in terms of MOA (minutes of angle). A full circle, spun around while aiming your bow, is 360 degrees. At 122cm, the entire target face at 70M, from white to white is exactly 1 angular degree of distance. Yes this is on purpose.
    To talk about smaller distances, like the 10 ring, you need to talk in smaller than 1 degree terms. This is where MOA comes in. One MOA = 1/60 of a degree. The 70M FITA target is therefore 60 MOA wide.

    As you might suspect, the horizontal or vertical distance represented by that 1 MOA is greater, the farther you go down range. Being off in your aim 1 MOA at 18M places you off the X much less than being 1 MOA off at 90M.

    Now that we've defined terms, here are the MOA widths of official FITA targets, placed at their official distances:
    18M = 76 MOA
    30M = 92 MOA
    50M = 55 MOA
    70M = 60 MOA
    90M = 47 MOA

    The main advantage to talking in terms of MOA is we can directly compare the tightness you must maintain your aim to hit the same relative spot on a given FITA target.

    From the above data, the answer to your question becomes academic and scientifically verifiable.
    Ranked from easiest to hardest to hit the 10-Ring:
    1. 30M
    2. 18M
    3. 70M
    4. 50M
    5. 90M

    Yes, that's right. The FITA 30M target is actually EASIER than a FITA 18M target. Not sure if the Vegas 450 target used indoors at 18M is the same dimensions.

    For further detail on MOA, check here:
    http://riflestocks.tripod.com/moa.html

    Hope that helps.

    Cheers,
    Christopher.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammerheadpc View Post
    Think in terms of MOA (minutes of angle). A full circle, spun around while aiming your bow, is 360 degrees. At 122cm, the entire target face at 70M, from white to white is exactly 1 angular degree of distance. Yes this is on purpose.
    To talk about smaller distances, like the 10 ring, you need to talk in smaller than 1 degree terms. This is where MOA comes in. One MOA = 1/60 of a degree. The 70M FITA target is therefore 60 MOA wide.

    As you might suspect, the horizontal or vertical distance represented by that 1 MOA is greater, the farther you go down range. Being off in your aim 1 MOA at 18M places you off the X much less than being 1 MOA off at 90M.

    Now that we've defined terms, here are the MOA widths of official FITA targets, placed at their official distances:
    18M = 76 MOA
    30M = 92 MOA
    50M = 55 MOA
    70M = 60 MOA
    90M = 47 MOA

    The main advantage to talking in terms of MOA is we can directly compare the tightness you must maintain your aim to hit the same relative spot on a given FITA target.

    From the above data, the answer to your question becomes academic and scientifically verifiable.
    Ranked from easiest to hardest to hit the 10-Ring:
    1. 30M
    2. 18M
    3. 70M
    4. 50M
    5. 90M

    Yes, that's right. The FITA 30M target is actually EASIER than a FITA 18M target. Not sure if the Vegas 450 target used indoors at 18M is the same dimensions.

    For further detail on MOA, check here:
    http://riflestocks.tripod.com/moa.html

    Hope that helps.

    Cheers,
    Christopher.
    I wonder why I'm not seeing some 2x50m formats, or 50m shoot-offs?
    He who controls the past commands the future, He who commands the future, conquers the past.

    - Kane

  12. #12
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    Hammerhead:
    Thanks for a very concise description. I now understand why my first indoor tournament was way more fun than I expected it to be. Also I was thinking that 70m was easier than I expected once I got past the intimidation of the longer distance.

    I guess the best way to practice then might be 90m then 50m then 18m. I might just suggest a 50m 18m round to the club and see how we all do.
    Hmm, where does the womens 60m fit in to MOA scope.

  13. #13
    distance Width
    18m 76moa
    30m 92moa
    50m 55moa
    60m 70moa
    70m 60moa
    90m 47moa

    As you can see the AR W1 and woman's 60 is quite a bit easier then 90 meters by moa. Shooting AR W1 one handed with your teeth and a 45 lbs draw weight limit is LIKELY the hardest.
    Last edited by Sky Warrior; August 11th, 2007 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Warrior View Post
    Shooting AR W1 one handed with your teeth and a 45 lbs draw weight limit is LIKELY the hardest.
    I watched a guy do that here. I don't know if he had a 45 pound draw weight but he wasn't giving anypoints up to the archers who were using both hands. Bloody amazing

  15. #15
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    Solving the two kinematics equations of two dimensional motion for elevation angle, I found that at 50 meters at 200 ft/sec initial velocity a deviation of 0.92 degrees would impact the 10 ring of a 80cm face.
    While at 90 meters a angle deviation of 0.72 degrees was allowable to remain in the 10 ring of a122cm face.
    That translates to a up/down deviation of 0.392" for 50 meters and 0.330" at 90 meters. (I used 0.62 meters as my arm length)

    Clearly the 90 meter target requires less vertical error at release.

    What about form errors say a change in initial velocity of a couple of feet/sec?
    At 50 meters a deviation of +/- 1 ft sec results in an impact of +/- 35mm
    At 90 meters same deviation results in an impact change of +/- 106mm.

    Again the 90 meter 122cm face if more sensitive to error.

    Adding in real life factors like the wind, velocity degredation.....

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