October 5th, 2007, 04:23 PM
The truth on deer pee(estrous)
anyone ever noticed that when you buy a bottle of doe in heat it smells aweful. here's the story. My brother has a customer who on the side has a deer farm. So being that my brother takes really good care of him he sent my brother a quart of doe in heat collected from one doe the day before we got it. no preservitives, nothing. So we rush it straight to the freezer when we got it to keep it good. Let me tell you, it has a almost sweet smell to it. Compared to the smell of the stuff I have bought foerever and rarely use it was a complete difference. i have put this stuff out 5 times this year(our rut is starting off heavy right now as it usually does im in SC) anbd every time i put it out i have bucks come running in. havent got a shot at a shotter yet but saw 2 that were over 4 1/2. it just amazes me of how much bullcrap 90% of scent sold are. they go bad before you can use them. ---Id like some other peoples input on store bought scents. I know some work. i have had the buck bomb work, think thats beause its preserved in the can. Give me some input becuase they come running to this stuff
October 5th, 2007, 04:46 PM
I agree with you about scents. I do think they degrade after some time. I really have not bought scents until last year when I had a buck come down the trail that I walked down. I used Code Blue doe estrous gel. I do not know if this was the reason or not. He did have his nose to the ground the whole time. Code Blue stated that their scents come from one doe and it is supposed to be fresh. So, this year I am not going to use the same scent as I did last year. I am going to go buy some new stuff.
October 5th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Yes, the difference between freshly collected deer urine that is bottled by a deer farmer and the other urines that are not is quite noticeable. If you have every had access to the real stuff you would wonder why anybody buys the mass produced products that are sold by the big companies. These big companies buy deer urine by the gallon from deer farmers across the U.S. and mix it all in a big vat and draw off one ounce bottles and sell it in every Walmart, Bass Pro, Academy and Cabela that will stock it. I some cases these bottles could be 2-3 years old and smell nothing like deer urine when opened. Any company that adds preservatives to ensure a long shelf life also comprises the integrity of the urine and thus changes it's smell.
Also, to make an aerosol takes the addition of chemicals that also change the smell. Hunters wonder why these products booger the deer, it's obvious when to examine these products that they rarely smell like fresh deer urine.
So you ask, where can you get freshly collected deer urine, it's easier than you think. Go on the web and educate yourself there are a few good companies (deer farms) that sell quality deer scents at an affordable price.
Yes, the fresh stuff works better, we get ours from southernwhitetailscents.com-they own thier own deer and add no preservatives!
October 5th, 2007, 05:28 PM
how would you even know if its deer urine? Its not FDA regulated for ingredients, or purity? You don't really have a clue what the H@#$ your buying, unless you are some bonified conesuer(sp?).
Me I'm sticking with what I manufacture, straight from the tap, I got an unlimited supply, and I know the born on date! Its not estrus though!
Its not what I do.........Its who I am..
hire - drive - buy - be
October 5th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Agreed. I don't believe there are enough "domestic" deer to produce the amount of stuff that is sold. Just because it has four legs does not make it a deer.
Originally Posted by scrapejuice
Long armed Old Glory arrow flinger
October 5th, 2007, 05:50 PM
I agree. I have a friend who does this as well, he is a sponsor here as a matter of fact. If I remember right, the urine, when kept cold, stays good for about 4 weeks (may be months, cant remember) Anyways, he refuses to sell to stores, only cold shipped straight to the customer. Amazing how different fresh urine smells than the stuff I was using until I met him.
October 5th, 2007, 05:58 PM
Why do ya'll find it amazing, The store bought stuff smells no different than going into a portapotty. Both are old and rank. Many stores have a surplus in the store rooms.. From last year..
I have discovered there are two sides to every argument. First and foremost, is my side, then there is the side thatno reasonably intelligent,informed,sane, and self respecting person could possibly hold..Bob
October 5th, 2007, 06:10 PM
What's the name of the friend...I would like to check his site out...if he is a sponsor, it should not be a problem
Originally Posted by fasst
October 5th, 2007, 09:22 PM
It is in my sig, www.stonycreekwhitetails.com the scents are Sure Draw scents.
Originally Posted by lampasashunter
October 5th, 2007, 09:27 PM
i noticed that also...vs1 smelled sweet ,,,,way different then 99% of the other stuff...maybe that is why it is crazy priced$$$$$
October 5th, 2007, 10:05 PM
The real truth!
Want to know the real truth about doe in heat / estrus urine?
Here it is: What attracts a buck during the breeding phase is what is actually contained in a doe's urine for only a few days.
1)When a doe is ready to breed she has estrous pheromones present in her urine.
2) these pheromones naturally dissipate from the urine in a few days.
3) even if you could collect and bottle the urine during this brief window of opportunity, the pheromones still naturally dissipate in the bottle and are no longer present in the collected specimen.
4) therefore unless your collected "doe in heat / estrous" urine is a day or two old, the actual estrous pheromones have all but disappeared.
Code blue "standing estrous" - biggest $40 an ounce lie in the industry. no actual estrous pheromones
All mass produced bottled urine's are just a bottle of old piss. What animal? No one knows. Actual estrous in the old piss? Not possible!
Hunt Safe !!! ...
October 5th, 2007, 10:13 PM
So what about the buck bomb. I have had sucess with it in the past.
October 5th, 2007, 10:40 PM
This is a question: Are'nt male & female rabbits called "BUCKS & DOES?"
October 5th, 2007, 11:51 PM
Ok, here is my take with no "Marketing Bull"....
So, you want to know the difference, do ya? Well let me try to explain what I have found over the last 6 years....
On the roof of a buck's mouth is an old factory organ called the vomeronasal organ... this organ is not connected to the sense of smell as it connects to a different area of the brain... As a buck walks along he is constantly licking up samples of urine from both buck and doe and performing a flehman sniff or flehman response...
Now why would this be so important for hunters to know and understand? You got me, but with a little understanding of the reproductive physiology of the doe, it paints a clear picture as to what is really going on....
Doe are seasonally polyestrous animals (short day breeders) whereby they only are capable of breeding in the fall when there is less day length and increased darkness. As the fall equinox settles in on or around September 22nd, there is more darkness in a 24 hour period than there is day light. This triggers the production of a hormone the initiates the start of the estrous cycle in the doe. A doe cycle is 26-28 days in length and is a 2 phase cycle. the first 13-14 days of her estrous cycle is controlled by the reproductive hormone "progesterone". the last 13-14 days of her cycle is controlled by the reproductive hormone "estrogen".
Picture if you will chemical messengers circulating through the blood stream, feeding information from the ovaries back the the hypothalamus located in the brain. The kidneys doing what they are designed to do, filter the chemical ketone's and they ultimatley end up in the urine the doe passes.
Now as the buck is walking along and sampling urine via a lip curl, he is able to detect the estrogen that starts to show up in the urine at about 14 -16 days into the doe's estrous cycle. Now the buck knows that the doe are approaching "estrus" and the chase phase has begun.
As the doe are nearing their 24-48 hours of estrus or standing heat, they are peaked at their highest levels of estrogen production, which triggers the behavioral signs of heat. Although the doe is not fully into the corpus luteum phase (ovulation), she is peaked and just about ready to allow the buck to mount her. Just as the estrogen levels start the decrease, the doe is triggered into ovulation by a sudden increase of a hormone called luitinizing hormone = LH. This is the time during the estrous cycle that you see the bucks locked up with a doe and in a few hours the doe will stand and allow the buck to mount her....
Ok, sorry.... got a little off topic there but I swear this long winded explanation has a point...
Fresh deer urine, when collected and used as a tool, will produce results, period!! Look at deer urine as a animal by-product just as the milk you pour in your coffee each morning or dump on your bowl of favorite cereal. You would not think of going into a store and buying a gallon of milk that has been sitting on the store shelf for months and years on end at room temperature? Heck no you wouldn't.... So why would you buy urine (another animal by-product) that has been sitting on the shelves at room temp for months or years? I don't why either, but millions of dollars are spent each year on old stale urines..
We conducted a redneck test on the urines that we collected from our deer. Here are the results we found..... Using plain old aquatic Ph test strips that you can purchase at wally world, we took two gallons of freshly collected deer urine and compared the results keeping one gallon in the fridge and leaving one gallon sit out at room temp.
Within 3 days, the gallon that was left to sit out at room temperature had a ph equivalent to ammonia solution, which is a ph Level of 12....
Surprisingly the gallon that was refrigerated hovered at around 7-8 ph for about the first 3 weeks. Just for the record, urine upon being expelled has a normal Ph range of +/- 6.5 to 7.5 depending largely on the diet....
From 3 -5 weeks after refrigeration, the Ph level slowly climbed to 9 - 9.5. At around 6 weeks the urine had made it 10 and by the 8th week, the urine had finally reached 12, which again is equivalent to ammonia solution.
My unofficial findings concluded that by keeping the urine cold, the temperature did not supply the ideal environment for the bacteria to feed and reproduce, just as with the milk, but I surely would not use 8 week old milk in my coffee....
Now as for smell, I can attest to the fact that "fresh doe urine" definitely has a perfumery smell to it and the buck urine has a harder musky smell to it. Nothing even remotely close to the smell of the pungent odors that we are used to buying from the shelves.... Trust me, after 6 months of bottle fresh deer urine each year, I know what it smells like....
Anyway, I just have to ask one more question for you all to think about.... When was the last time you stood at a urinal and urinated the color of coffee? I have had some binges and even drank the green beer to urinate green, but I have yet to pee the color of coffee and have it as thick as tar... I also have yet, after 6 years of collecting deer urine, seen a buck or doe urinated any other color than real light golden brown from the doe to a reddish tint of testosterone in the buck.....
Last edited by Stonycreek; October 6th, 2007 at 12:09 AM.
October 6th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Very good explanation Stonycreek.
Oh, and as you know I just drop them and use my own whiz on my mock scrapes.
October 6th, 2007, 09:44 AM
Good informative post Stony. Now the question comes: how do you extend the life of the product? Bottled fresh, shipped pronto, useless in a few weeks seems to be your take on the process (and you know a bunch more about scents than I). How do we, as broke hunters, go about using a quality product without a second mortgage?
Hunt hard, learn something everyday in the woods, never give in, and that's the moment the big bull will step out broadside.
Bring a GPS. It's awkward to eat your hunting partners.
October 6th, 2007, 10:33 AM
I'm sure you are very knowledgeable on the subject but I gotta tell ya, when you start off talking about the "old factory organ" that doesn't really instill me with confidence....sorry, but I had to bust your stones a little on that one. I'm sure you knew it is really the olfactory, not the old factory.
Originally Posted by Stonycreek
Last edited by Buzzkill; October 6th, 2007 at 10:36 AM.
October 6th, 2007, 10:55 AM
i immediately thought the same thing- credibility right out the window... but the rest of the post did seem to be pretty informative and seemingly correct.
Originally Posted by Buzzkill
October 6th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Great thread! It takes some searching but I can usually learn something new on this site everyday. I usually don't use urine sent much but I did pick up a can of that silly string stuff the other day and now I'm not sure if I will even use it.
08 Ross Cardiac37,whisker biscuit,S-coil,kwikee Quiver,Pro Hunter micro sight,Beman ICS Hunter arrows,Steelhead 125's
October 6th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Be a great time to claim typo.
Originally Posted by quags37
A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm.
October 6th, 2007, 11:28 AM
October 6th, 2007, 11:40 AM
code blue works for me Used it last year and killed my first buck with it during rifle season
October 6th, 2007, 11:45 AM
Last edited by Stonycreek; October 6th, 2007 at 11:50 AM.
October 6th, 2007, 12:10 PM
This really is a good thread and Stony's info is very informative but...
I don't mean to beat a dead horse here regarding the "old factoy" thing but how can an olfactory nerve NOT be related to the sense of smell? By definition olfactory means of or pertaining to the sense of smell: olfactory organs.
October 6th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by CWarmouth
Lets take a closer look at the Vomeronasal Organ, the olfactory bulb and the accessory olfactory bulb...
The Vomeronasal Organ (VMO) is actually an "accessory olfactory system" (AOS). The VMO is a fluid filled organ lined with similar cellular structures that are found in the nasal cavity known as sensory epithilium.
The axons of neurons (nerve fibers) lining the vomeronasal organ are bundled together to form the "vomeronasal nerve". The VM nerve then transmits the information to the accessory olfactory bulb.
The "Accessory Olfactory Bulb" is defined by Wikipedia as follows:
"The accessory olfactory bulb, which resides on the dorsal-posterior region of the main olfactory bulb, forms a parallel pathway independent from the main olfactory bulb. It is the second processing stage of the accessory olfactory system. It receives axonal input from the vomeronasal organ, a distinct sensory epithelium from the main olfactory epithelium that detects pheremones, among other chemical stimuli. Like the main olfactory bulb, axonal input to the accessory olfactory bulb forms synapses with mitral cells within glomeruli. However, mitral cells in the accessory olfactory bulb project their axons to targets in the amygdala and hypothalamus where they may influence aggressive and mating behavior.
Unlike in the main olfactory system, the axons that leave the accessory olfactory bulb do not project to cortex but rather to targets in the amygdala and hypothalamus where they may influence aggressive and mating behavior".
I hope this information helps clear up the sense of smell and helps someone understand what is taking place the next time they see a buck doing a lip curl - AKA flehman response, whereby exposing urine to the VMO... Also, you can witness this flehming behavior live on our steaming video from cameras located over food plots and feeders. The buck are really starting to get intense in their inspection of the urines left by other deer... Check it out by clicking here!!
Also, please forgive me if I've misspelled any words as I didn't take much time to proof read...
Last edited by Stonycreek; October 6th, 2007 at 02:05 PM.
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