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Thread: Michelle Ragsdale Style

  1. #1
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    Michelle Ragsdale Style

    for all you that follow the professional archery world, how many of you have ever noticed how extremely high her elbow is? i seem to have the same "problem" shooting back tension. if i don't hold my elbow higher than what is "normal", i can't get into my rhomboids. i have heard somewhere that she holds her elbow that high to "find back tension" also. is this common for hinge shooters or very rare. maybe i am doing something else wrong which forces me to need the high elbow but for now it is the only way i can shoot consistently using the upper middle of my back? i wish she had a website or Terry had a website for me to inquire more about her high elbow.



    anybody with any insight or advice?


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    She sure did shoot with the high elbow.... I'm sure you realize that your living right in the neck of the woods with one of the best coaches in the country on shooting with a hinge?????

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    Ttt I also dont know how people shoot BT with a lower elbow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclegus View Post
    She sure did shoot with the high elbow.... I'm sure you realize that your living right in the neck of the woods with one of the best coaches in the country on shooting with a hinge?????
    i think you mean Larry Wise. Yeah he's great. i have actually been there(his house) for a coaching session once but really need many more hours with him. it isn't a SHORT ride unfortunately and it can get expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by kgoold View Post
    Ttt I also dont know how people shoot BT with a lower elbow.
    .

    do you also shoot back tension with a really high elbow and if so, why do you do so? for me, if i don't hold my elbow "high" , my wrist tends to bend and the muscles on my outer back seem to take over.

    yeah she could really shoot and looks like she could "turn men's heads" too. i wonder if she was a great shot before meeting Terry or if he turned her on to the sport. both are great shots and from what i hear are great people.

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    I have been experimenting with a streatchy band connected to a string so I can pull it back with my release and I found that the lower my elbow gets, the more I use my shoulder with the shot and harder to get the shot off. Although my elbow is not as high as Michelle.

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    yes and yes.


    her maiden name is Sanderson. go to the nfaa website and look up the archived results.

    she IS the 'pse girl'.


    Quote Originally Posted by shortarrow View Post

    yeah she could really shoot and looks like she could "turn men's heads" too. i wonder if she was a great shot before meeting Terry or if he turned her on to the sport. both are great shots and from what i hear are great people.
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    I'll Try...

    Being a brother-in-law doesn't mean a whole lot... but.... I can tell you that I have had this same discussion with Michlle, Terry and our Dad. I shoot back tension with a realitively high elbow.... not quite as high as Michelle's but a little higher than what some call "normal". The answer that we all came up with is "normal is what feels right to you".... Do what is natural. I think the reason that some shoot high and others shoot "low" or level elbow is partially the way your body (shoulder joints) operate but mostly due to the way you did it when you first started shooting and developed your "archery muscles". These muscles aren't used for any other activity as intensely as they are when you are shooting. Next time you are at the range or a shoot... watch the different ways that people draw their bows. I have noticed that the "level" elbow folks seem to pull straight back with their draw hand while "high" elbow folks pull over the top. I think that it's muscle memory and muscle developement that has it's root back to the first time you drew a bow. Bottom line is..... whichever way feels natural is going to be more repeatable and in order to be accurate everything about your shot has to be repeatable...... TR
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    individual physiology has a lot to do with it too.

    wide chested and short arm'd people cant shoot the cookie cutter form 'low/level' elbow and get the rhomboids to properly rotate the scapula.

    i spent a day with Mr Wise and from the side, yeah, i have a 'high' elbow, but from the back, alignment is 'correct'.

    like toby said.....it is what works for you repeadedly and confidently. no one person will have the cookie cutter body dimensions to do it cookie cutter 'right'
    When the war is over soldiers come home, SAILORS dont. WE will always stand a vigilant watch to protect YOUR way of life.
    It's not that I'm cranky, I just dont care what you think.
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    thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by TobyR. View Post
    Being a brother-in-law doesn't mean a whole lot... but.... I can tell you that I have had this same discussion with Michlle, Terry and our Dad. I shoot back tension with a realitively high elbow.... not quite as high as Michelle's but a little higher than what some call "normal". The answer that we all came up with is "normal is what feels right to you".... Do what is natural. I think the reason that some shoot high and others shoot "low" or level elbow is partially the way your body (shoulder joints) operate but mostly due to the way you did it when you first started shooting and developed your "archery muscles". These muscles aren't used for any other activity as intensely as they are when you are shooting. Next time you are at the range or a shoot... watch the different ways that people draw their bows. I have noticed that the "level" elbow folks seem to pull straight back with their draw hand while "high" elbow folks pull over the top. I think that it's muscle memory and muscle developement that has it's root back to the first time you drew a bow. Bottom line is..... whichever way feels natural is going to be more repeatable and in order to be accurate everything about your shot has to be repeatable...... TR
    thanks a lot man. so there are more of us "high elbow" freaks. only problem i have when my elbow is high is sometimes i have to much power and the shot is really quick. about how long should it take my shot to go off once i begin squeezing? when everything feels right, sometimes i only get less than 2 seconds of "squeeze" but if i don't have that elbow up, i really struggle using my outer back muscles to get it off

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortarrow View Post
    thanks a lot man. so there are more of us "high elbow" freaks. only problem i have when my elbow is high is sometimes i have to much power and the shot is really quick. about how long should it take my shot to go off once i begin squeezing? when everything feels right, sometimes i only get less than 2 seconds of "squeeze" but if i don't have that elbow up, i really struggle using my outer back muscles to get it off

    ..... Man!! I am jealous!!! Too Quick?!?! That would be nice.... for me anyway...... I don't now what release you are shooting but if it was me, I would adjust the release to have just a little more travel.... kick my elbow up high and proud, and pound some X's!!!!
    I have seen (read) lots of differents ways to shoot a back tension release.... some I agree with and some I don't... but I have been shooting a back tension release since the mid 70's.... homemade rope/spike releases...
    and the best description I can give you of what in my opinion is the best way to do it is..... once you get "on target".... pre-load the release by turning your hand (I can hear the nay-sayers now!!) This is where some folks, including me use the "click" option on some models. Once you have pre-loaded or clicked.... bear down on your aiming... get it perfect and hold it there as steadily as possible....while pushing slightly foward with your front arm and pulling with your back arm..... once you have started to "push-pull" DO NOT stop. Our Dad always used the expression "try to touch your shoulder blades together".... which is actually a perfect description of what my version of "push-pull" feels like. Again... once you start to push/pull keep going.. let your dot or pin or what ever you are using float around in the dot or X ... keep building back tension until the shot EXPLODES!! I know I have things working right when I get what seems almost like a "freeze frame" when the shot breaks..... I don't even have to look at the target.... the arrow is exactly where the sight was when it broke.....

    OOPS.... I got on a roll and didn't answer the original question... 3-4 seconds is plenty of "squeeze time"....... assuming that you are settled in and aiming before the squeeze..... in fact 2 seconds of actual squeeze sounds like Heaven to me........TR
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    Quote Originally Posted by rock monkey View Post
    individual physiology has a lot to do with it too.

    wide chested and short arm'd people cant shoot the cookie cutter form 'low/level' elbow and get the rhomboids to properly rotate the scapula.
    BINGO buddy, thanks a lot. that is ME to a "T"!!!! i have a big chest and short arms(made me have a great bench press back...well in the past). the way you describe it makes me understand and gives me reason to just "go with it" instead of wondering if i am doing it "wrong".


    Quote Originally Posted by TobyR. View Post
    ..... Man!! I am jealous!!! Too Quick?!?! That would be nice.... for me anyway...... I don't now what release you are shooting but if it was me, I would adjust the release to have just a little more travel.... kick my elbow up high and proud, and pound some X's!!!!
    I have seen (read) lots of differents ways to shoot a back tension release.... some I agree with and some I don't... but I have been shooting a back tension release since the mid 70's.... homemade rope/spike releases...
    and the best description I can give you of what in my opinion is the best way to do it is..... once you get "on target".... pre-load the release by turning your hand (I can hear the nay-sayers now!!) This is where some folks, including me use the "click" option on some models. Once you have pre-loaded or clicked.... bear down on your aiming... get it perfect and hold it there as steadily as possible....while pushing slightly foward with your front arm and pulling with your back arm..... once you have started to "push-pull" DO NOT stop. Our Dad always used the expression "try to touch your shoulder blades together".... which is actually a perfect description of what my version of "push-pull" feels like. Again... once you start to push/pull keep going.. let your dot or pin or what ever you are using float around in the dot or X ... keep building back tension until the shot EXPLODES!! I know I have things working right when I get what seems almost like a "freeze frame" when the shot breaks..... I don't even have to look at the target.... the arrow is exactly where the sight was when it broke.....

    OOPS.... I got on a roll and didn't answer the original question... 3-4 seconds is plenty of "squeeze time"....... assuming that you are settled in and aiming before the squeeze..... in fact 2 seconds of actual squeeze sounds like Heaven to me........TR
    thanks to you also buddy. other people told me you should be squeeizing like 6-8 seconds for the shot to go to shoot "competitively" and i could never understand why. i can make it take a little longer(about 4 seconds) if i really relax. the longer time seems to give me more of a "surprise" but if the sight picture looks real good and steady it goes off much quicker which i quess is a good thing. the way you described it, your shot is a lot like mine except i don't "push" at all and i don't "pull" with my ARM at all. when you say 2 seconds sounds like heaven to you, do you mean you wish you could squeeze it off quicker?

  12. #12
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    "normal is what feels right to you"....

    Quote Originally Posted by TobyR. View Post
    Being a brother-in-law doesn't mean a whole lot... but.... I can tell you that I have had this same discussion with Michlle, Terry and our Dad. I shoot back tension with a realitively high elbow.... not quite as high as Michelle's but a little higher than what some call "normal". The answer that we all came up with is "normal is what feels right to you".... Do what is natural. I think the reason that some shoot high and others shoot "low" or level elbow is partially the way your body (shoulder joints) operate but mostly due to the way you did it when you first started shooting and developed your "archery muscles". These muscles aren't used for any other activity as intensely as they are when you are shooting. Next time you are at the range or a shoot... watch the different ways that people draw their bows. I have noticed that the "level" elbow folks seem to pull straight back with their draw hand while "high" elbow folks pull over the top. I think that it's muscle memory and muscle developement that has it's root back to the first time you drew a bow. Bottom line is..... whichever way feels natural is going to be more repeatable and in order to be accurate everything about your shot has to be repeatable...... TR
    I agree with this post completely. I've tried to configure myself into the "level elbow" group with no luck. It feels like I'd have to completely change my anchor and make my draw length 32"!
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    same here

    Quote Originally Posted by RxBowhunter View Post
    I agree with this post completely. I've tried to configure myself into the "level elbow" group with no luck. It feels like I'd have to completely change my anchor and make my draw length 32"!
    me too. I've tried and i just can't get into the CENTER of my back. do you also have relatively small arms? i was watching Michelle again last night on "straight talk" and she really jerks upon EXPLOSION. seems like she gets a real good surprise. i also watch Jamie Vonderschmidt(splngchk) on there and she seems to have a high elbow too, just not as high as michelles. let's face it women's chest are proportionately bigger than ours and they tend to have smaller arms so the physiological explanation seems to hold a lot of merit. i guess we are more in touch with our feminine sides when shooting.YUK

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    higher anchor

    Quote Originally Posted by RxBowhunter View Post
    I agree with this post completely. I've tried to configure myself into the "level elbow" group with no luck. It feels like I'd have to completely change my anchor and make my draw length 32"!
    i forgot to mention i anchor a bit higher too with a hinge. Randy Ulmer does the same.

  15. #15
    Toby, I picked up this old thread that is very interesting. I met Terry and Michelle in 1980 at Watkins Glenn New York. I didn't know who Terry was but video arcades were a hot item then and we must have spent 2 hours after the shoot on those machines. I was only 11, but I remember thinking what a cool guy Terry was. During that shoot I was introduced to PSE and changed from a Bear Tamerlane and was given a PSE Citation. It shot like a dream and was cobalt blue. The PSE staff introduced me to back tension and I began shooting a stan more than the fletchmatic T. I did the unthinkable and shot part of the tournament with each release. I learned that even with the Fletch T I had to use back pressure. To this day I use the same technique you are describing no matter what release it is. I know I'll get naysayers for this, but it worked. I won the nationals and shot a high enough score to win the international but was disqualified because I didn't realize I couldn't use my scope. Only moveable site was allowed. Another fellow I met at that shoot was named Jack Cramer. I think he was Terry's competition. Jennings gave me a Model T, but I could never shoot it like the Citation. I hope Terry and Michelle are still active in archery. They are amazing people. I hope to meet you some day as well. I am now coaching and hope to be at a few shoots in 2013.

    Wade Rose

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    Epic post for those struggling with BT.
    Have a nice day.

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    Xquest Dean Pridgen worked allot with Terry and Michelle as the grew up.

    Dean has always said find what is most comfortable and thats what your going to repeat evertime.

    His form many felt was wrong but it sure worked for him
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    To answer one question - Michelle was an excellent shooter prior to meeting Terry. They were both pretty young when they met though I believe.

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    sorry to dig this out of the archives but I skipped out on it before..... Quick story... Michelle had won Nationals (twice maybe) before they met. Terry won Nationals the same year but they didn't meet there. I remember when the Archery Magazine with the results and pictures from Nationals showed up at our house. Terry and I were looking at it (he was @17.. I was 13) he showed me a picture of Michelle and said "i'm gonna marry that chick"..... They were married a saveral years later and Michelle's sister Lynn (great shot also) told the story of how Michelle said the same thing about Terry while they were looking at the same magazine.... pretty cool. Side note... my younger brother married Michelle's younger sister Lisa....
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