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Thread: Why is the Berger hole so important?

  1. #26
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    some bow manufactures that have good nock travel use this as their reference but for some bows like a dual or Binary cam with mirror image cams and modules the nock travel will rise or fall about half as much as what the berger hole/nocking point is high. this is why guys with dual or binary setups try to cheat their rests and nocking points as close to the shelf as they can get (if their berger hole is above center) since it helps with the nock travel.



    when you get a change pick up and draw a mathews and a PSE or Bowtech and see how they feel. to me the mathews feels like my arm is a mile low at full draw because they feel that locating the arrow on center is the correct way for design on the single cams anyway (I hear that the Monsters are above center) where as PSE feels that the shelf centered with the nocking point and apex of the grip being equal distance from the shelf/center of the bow is the correct way of design.
    The old CSS and Mountaineers have the apex of the grip on center

    my point is that everyone has their own theory as to what is best and why. the berger hole location depends on a lot of things from cam design to balance of the bow at full draw.

    later
    jkeiffer
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  2. #27
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    reference point maybe!

    If you didn't have the rest mounting hole to use as a reference point for arrow
    rest or arrow alignment what else would you use. On most bows the vertical center of the bow is the same place as the pressure point of the grip. You set your rest and arrow to what shoots best for you. Thats what really matters,
    the Berger Button hole, named for Victor Berger the inventor of the Berger button, is a great reference point, also how else would you mount your rest?

  3. #28
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    ^^^

  4. #29
    ..it is the CENTER of the UNIVERSE....
    That would NOT be the berger hole.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowhandstl View Post
    Does that effect how the bow holds? For instance, if you wanted to use a heavier stabilizer, could you move the arrow rest slightly above the center of the plunger hole so the force of your pull would offset the effect of the heavier stablilizer? Would that make the bow more sensitive to changes in pressure against the wall at full draw?

    Slowhandstl
    Bingo we have a winner here! it just depends on how the bow was designed and you have to look were the release holds onto the string not the arrow go to low with it and you will have bow that will take a crane to lift it up to the target! old school tiller tuning! of course i build all of these factors into my designs to make them easy to set up and hold like a rock, going right through the berger button holes.,
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  6. #31
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    By George I think I got it. It's basically for fletching clearance. If you were going to mount one of those inside the riser spring rests, the height of the hole is set for fletching clearance.

    There was still fletching contact with this style of rest, but it was on the riser and not the shelf which could cause porpousing.
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  7. #32
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    ttt

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougH9 View Post
    Quote:
    ..it is the CENTER of the UNIVERSE....

    That would NOT be the berger hole..
    Yup.

    That would be my wife!

  9. #34
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    My experience

    ok my experience with the burger button hole is the same as paper tuining its just a general guideline to get you started in the right direction... With my mathews i had more luck at distance with the arrow competly(A/C navigators) below the hole just made sense to me with the whole hand eye cordination thing coming into play(simple termonology but think about it)... now with my new Hoyt the bow seems to like my x10's about 3/4 shaft under the hole at brace which at full draw works out to be about half an half... havent had this bow long enough to really tinker with it but on my mathews it deffinatly incread the groups of the bow from 20 to 100yds... it even made the bow hold better...Which makes sese if ya think about it due to the fact the amount of bow above and below your hand is closer to the same at full draw not a whole lot but enough for me to notice..
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  10. #35
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    The most important thing here "reference" no more, no less. Besides it's where the rest bolts to the riser(kind of important too). As far as it going all the way through the riser------hold over from old days and that style of rest that need the berger button.
    Have a good day and a better hunt

  11. #36
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    [QUOTE=X Hunter;1054784497] with my new Hoyt the bow seems to like my x10's about 3/4 shaft under the hole at brace which at full draw works out to be about half an half...QUOTE]


    Do you mean 3/4 of your shaft is below the botom of the hole?


    I dropped mine a little moe but had to change cam timing. Creep test was off. Is this becuase I moved the nock down?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Force GX Matt View Post
    jkeiffer has it but x-it is far from center.....most manufactures except mathews has 'about' center.....although mathews berger hole looks 'center'...it really isn't....infact that's why you really can't line up a mathews correctly...because they are about 5/8 of inch out/wrong.....
    Sorry my tribute the shelf is center. My dxt the center is in between the bergerhole and the shelf.
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  13. #38
    The berger hole is for nothing more than mounting the arrow rest as far as I'm concerned when your talking about coumpound bows. I have have arrows set right through it, above, and below it. Just depends on the type of rest, arrow, fletching, and the bow itself.
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  14. #39
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    all the money that goes into r+d and designing a machined riser,I don't think any company would just drill the berger hole in some random spot.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdduffy View Post
    all the money that goes into r+d and designing a machined riser,I don't think any company would just drill the berger hole in some random spot.
    +1 I'm sure some engineer had a reason for where they put it.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by highwaynorth View Post
    +1 I'm sure some engineer had a reason for where they put it.
    I am sure some engineer thought it was a good idea to put timing mark on a can too, but that doesn't explain why it is important!

    Question restated:

    Does the berger hole have any signifigance in modern compund archery or just a leftover from traditional times? If it does, then what is it's signifigance?

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by jdduffy View Post
    all the money that goes into r+d and designing a machined riser,I don't think any company would just drill the berger hole in some random spot.
    This makes sense to me, because in my bow, the berger hole is very low, i dont think i could lower the arrow below the berger hole without fletching contact, but i am going to expirement, I love this topic, good job guys

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by highwaynorth View Post
    +1 I'm sure some engineer had a reason for where they put it.
    I told you guys where PSE's is for certain. PSE believes that the center of the bow being the shelf with the apex of the grip and berger hole equally spaced .7 inches is the best setup for shooting (their theory with all bows they have produced in at least the last 15+ years)

    with the hybrid cams and nock travel you can vary the rotational rates of the cams or the let out rates of the string tracks to control the nock travel. PSE designs their nock travel to be through the center of the berger hole which is why it is recomended to set the bow up with the arrow square and through the berger hole as a starting point. a starting point since arrow spine, rest timing, rest spring force, and many other factors into fine tuning a bow.

    on the BT bows I believe that they share the same concept but the binary cams are mirror images (correct me if I am wrong) so they try to get the berger hole or designated arrow position as close to the shelf as possible and I think its about a .5" split between the shelf. with a mirrored cam set up and the arrow above center it is impossible to get perfect nock travel (in a straight line anyway, Perfect may not be a straight line as hoyt's belief is to have downward nock travel on the shot for arrow stabilization and constant pressure on the rest)

    Maybe Mathews Berger Hole is not the center of the bow, but I do think their philosophy is to have the arrow at the center of the bow so that torque/angle of bow induced on the bow in theory has less effect at the shot

    Probably went a little overboard here but generally speaking most bow manufactures strategically place the berger hole for reference depending on their design intentions,

    later
    jkeiffer
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  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by jkeiffer View Post
    I told you guys where PSE's is for certain. PSE believes that the center of the bow being the shelf with the apex of the grip and berger hole equally spaced .7 inches is the best setup for shooting (their theory with all bows they have produced in at least the last 15+ years)

    with the hybrid cams and nock travel you can vary the rotational rates of the cams or the let out rates of the string tracks to control the nock travel. PSE designs their nock travel to be through the center of the berger hole which is why it is recomended to set the bow up with the arrow square and through the berger hole as a starting point. a starting point since arrow spine, rest timing, rest spring force, and many other factors into fine tuning a bow.

    on the BT bows I believe that they share the same concept but the binary cams are mirror images (correct me if I am wrong) so they try to get the berger hole or designated arrow position as close to the shelf as possible and I think its about a .5" split between the shelf. with a mirrored cam set up and the arrow above center it is impossible to get perfect nock travel (in a straight line anyway, Perfect may not be a straight line as hoyt's belief is to have downward nock travel on the shot for arrow stabilization and constant pressure on the rest)

    Maybe Mathews Berger Hole is not the center of the bow, but I do think their philosophy is to have the arrow at the center of the bow so that torque/angle of bow induced on the bow in theory has less effect at the shot

    Probably went a little overboard here but generally speaking most bow manufactures strategically place the berger hole for reference depending on their design intentions,

    later
    jkeiffer
    It's not where the arrow crosses the berger holes that matters. It is where the arrow attaches to the string that matters. Draw lengths need to be measured with the arrow attached to the string in a consistent spot from bow to bow. If you move your nocking point up or down, it will effect the bows draw length. So by squaring your arrow to the berger holes, you will attach the nocking point in the correct position for draw lengths. That doesn't mean that you can't install your nocking point a little above or below this point.

    As for cam timing. It will effect a solocams nock travel. On a cam 1/2 which works like a solocam, it will effect the nock travel, just not as much since you have a semi-symetrical top cam that is slaved to the bottom cam.

    As for an older two cam system. The nocking point will influence the timing position of the cams. The closer to center of the string the nocking point is located, the closer the cams will be positioned the same at brace height. The farther away from center of the string, the more the cams will be positioned different from one to the other at brace height.

    As for a binary. You have two symetrical cams that are fully slaved to each other. No matter where the nocking point is the cam position will remain the same. If you grab the string above or below the nocking point and pull it back, it will not change the timing. The nocking point will not effect the timing. The nocking point will have an effect on draw length and speed like all ther cam systems.

    Solocams don't have the best nock travel. If the cam is positioned right and the nocking point is positioned right, the nock travel is pretty good on most of today's bows. Some of the earlier solocam's nock travel was bad. The designs have improved since then and most are not an issue. Older 2 cams and binary have the best nock travel if timed correctly. Cam 1/2 nock travel can be effected by pulling into the wall differently from shot to shot. They need to be creep tuned to eliminate this.

    So depending on the bow and cam design, the nocking point can make a difference on the tuning and performance of the bow. The nocking point should be straight out level from the berger holes.

    Some bows have the true center split between the berger holes and the grip. The closer the berger holes are to the grip, the more stable the bow is. If they could occupy the same place, the bow would be very stable. Strother bows have the best shelf. It is cut low and wide and the grip is cut high and tight. That's one reason they feel so damn good. Bowtech and elite has a low shelf but the design isn't as good. It has that little tunnel through the shelf. The grip is cut high and tight though simular to the strothers, just not as nice. I never liked the mathews grip and geometry. The bows feel top heavy and the grip doesn't feel natural. That's why they make different bows for different folks.

  20. #45
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    we are both on the same page just stating a few things in different terms. what I was getting at for the berger hole location is a good designer would not just put one anywhere just to hav it put in there. they are going to have standard placements so that when they set their bows up from model to model it is easier to have things be consistent. that is why I stated that companies like PSE put the berger hole in the position of where the desired nock placement of the string would be (in theory) and I agree that you can place it above, below or where ever is needed for optimum performance and repeatibility.

    for two cams I believe that you are discussing the rotational position of the cams required to obtain good nock travel depending on nock position. while the forces would change on the draw force with a twin cam bow, if the cams are in sync with each other I dont think that the nock position has as great of an effect on dynamic timing as most people think, just because of the tensions involved of the buss cables vs the draw string on todays highly loaded limbs (older twin cams I agree 100%)

    like I said, nock travel is dependant on where the arrow is positioned on the string in reference to the design intended position. with proper designing a single cam, hybrid, binary (or variation there of) and twin cams can all be designed to have perfect nock travel, its just a game of sacrifices and what you want the bow to do. there are some hybrid cam bows out there that are perfectly straight for nock travel so to say that one type of cam system is better than another is very difficult to say when looking at nock travel only. also when looking at nock travel you can get different results when the bow is just put on a peg (effect of the balance may people feel depending on positioning of the grip vs nocking point of the bow vs center of the bow) and a rigidly fastened bow. there are many different opinions and theories of what is the best and like you said, different bows for different folks as some things work better than others.

    later,
    jkeiffer

    Quote Originally Posted by fletched View Post
    It's not where the arrow crosses the berger holes that matters. It is where the arrow attaches to the string that matters. Draw lengths need to be measured with the arrow attached to the string in a consistent spot from bow to bow. If you move your nocking point up or down, it will effect the bows draw length. So by squaring your arrow to the berger holes, you will attach the nocking point in the correct position for draw lengths. That doesn't mean that you can't install your nocking point a little above or below this point.

    As for cam timing. It will effect a solocams nock travel. On a cam 1/2 which works like a solocam, it will effect the nock travel, just not as much since you have a semi-symetrical top cam that is slaved to the bottom cam.

    As for an older two cam system. The nocking point will influence the timing position of the cams. The closer to center of the string the nocking point is located, the closer the cams will be positioned the same at brace height. The farther away from center of the string, the more the cams will be positioned different from one to the other at brace height.

    As for a binary. You have two symetrical cams that are fully slaved to each other. No matter where the nocking point is the cam position will remain the same. If you grab the string above or below the nocking point and pull it back, it will not change the timing. The nocking point will not effect the timing. The nocking point will have an effect on draw length and speed like all ther cam systems.

    Solocams don't have the best nock travel. If the cam is positioned right and the nocking point is positioned right, the nock travel is pretty good on most of today's bows. Some of the earlier solocam's nock travel was bad. The designs have improved since then and most are not an issue. Older 2 cams and binary have the best nock travel if timed correctly. Cam 1/2 nock travel can be effected by pulling into the wall differently from shot to shot. They need to be creep tuned to eliminate this.

    So depending on the bow and cam design, the nocking point can make a difference on the tuning and performance of the bow. The nocking point should be straight out level from the berger holes.

    Some bows have the true center split between the berger holes and the grip. The closer the berger holes are to the grip, the more stable the bow is. If they could occupy the same place, the bow would be very stable. Strother bows have the best shelf. It is cut low and wide and the grip is cut high and tight. That's one reason they feel so damn good. Bowtech and elite has a low shelf but the design isn't as good. It has that little tunnel through the shelf. The grip is cut high and tight though simular to the strothers, just not as nice. I never liked the mathews grip and geometry. The bows feel top heavy and the grip doesn't feel natural. That's why they make different bows for different folks.
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