I've been following along the bareshaft tuning threads and have appreciated all the input. I understand the concept of tuning for perfect flight. The question I have is how to determine perfect flight. Shooting a bareshaft through paper is one way. Once a bullet hole is achieved at 6 - 8 ft do you continue to move back? Are we done with that method and then move on to bareshaft vs fletched shaft? The other method is to shoot a bareshaft and then shoot a fletched shaft, compare results and make adjustments from there. Are those pretty much the options? At what distance do you claim that you have achieved satisfactory flight with these two methods. Would appreciate knowing the steps you go through.
another bareshaft tuning question
mx482
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I've been following along the bareshaft tuning threads and have appreciated all the input. I understand the concept of tuning for perfect flight. The question I have is how to determine perfect flight. Shooting a bareshaft through paper is one way. Once a bullet hole is achieved at 6 - 8 ft do you continue to move back? Are we done with that method and then move on to bareshaft vs fletched shaft? The other method is to shoot a bareshaft and then shoot a fletched shaft, compare results and make adjustments from there. Are those pretty much the options? At what distance do you claim that you have achieved satisfactory flight with these two methods. Would appreciate knowing the steps you go through.
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I have found that shooting a bullet hole bareshaft through paper has little to do with the long range grouping. Recently I was so happy that I was able to shoot a pefect bullet hole at 8 yards with a bareshaft only to find that the arrow lands 4 inches right of fletched arrows which was quite dissapointing. After some tweaking of the left yoke cables now they are one tight group all together at 20 yards bareshaft and fletched. I haven't shot it through paper since, as this happened last night, but I suspect it won't be a perfect hole at 8 yards again. I am much happier with arrows grouping together at distance though (and in the same plane vertically and horizontally, no nock high/left/right etc upon impact)
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Bullet holes mean very little as above. As regard LP essbof what is said if you can shoot 3 bareshafts from 30 yards and shoot a 2" circle your not going to get it any better. I've tried them all . I don't even shoot thru paper anymore. I set center shot start with level nock no cam lean and start shooting bareshafts at 10 yards. When I am finished I can shoot bareshafts out to 50-60 yards and they hit what I aim at. To many bow sciences here and over half is useless.
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Several ways to tune and they all work. I shoot bare shaft and fletched shafts at 20 yards and make adjustments based on how they compare. To me its the fastest and easiest way to tune. When they hit the same spot I am done. Paper tuning works too but I have found that it can be hard to tell when you have "perfect" bullet hole because once you get really close they all look perfect. I have paper tuned to a bullet hole than used a bare shaft to confirm at 20yds and hit 6" apart (fletched and bare). Continued tuning till they hit the same and then shot thru paper at the end...still had a "perfect" bullet hole. Guess the first one wasn't quite perfect. IMHO bare shaft tuning is a more precise method.
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I just posted my techniques in another thread, so I will post it again. Here is my method, you can do whatever method or distance you want. You will find that this may take a while so you will have to decide how far (distance wise) you want "perfect flight".
I start at 10' give or take with bareshaft. From there I go outside and shoot BS and fletched at 20yds, and after they are both very close (POI and angle of impact) I move back 30. At 30 is when I throw on a fixed blade for the final touches focusing mainly on POI.
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I think it depends on your goals and how much time you want to put into it. I would recommend you start a log and write down everything you do and the results. If you are a bow hunter out of a tree and your longest shot is 25 yards you might get a broad head and fletched shaft to hit together at 30. If you are hunting antelope out west and shoot 60 or more yards, I would test at that distance. It requires better form to shoot bare shafts than fletched (thats the purpose of fletchings). You can not expect to get good test results further than you can group bare shafts (for most people it is 20-30 yards) because it is form dependent. So what is the maximum distance that you can shoot a small group of bare shafts? That is YOUR distance, don't worry about what others are shooting. You might be able to group broad heads better than bare shafts because of the fletchings, and depending on how big your broad head blades are. Many less skilled archers shoot mechanical heads for this reason.
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Where some folks get mislead is when they see a "perfect" bullet hole in paper made by a bare shaft. They then go shoot outside at 20 yards, more or less, and find their fletched and bare shafts do not hit together like they want. There are a few reasons that this could happen like fletching contact or less than perfect shooting form but all too often it is because what they thought was a "perfect" bare shaft bullet hole in paper wasn't really perfect because it can be hard if not impossible to see a slight bare shaft tear in paper. Another reason I have found is that I must tune a bow for how I shoot it. This means that after a lot of paper tuning bare shafts and fletched, even at different distances, the bow may not be tuned as well as it could be for me.
I do NOT spend a lot of time paper tuning anymore IF I paper tune at all. The bow I used to win 2017 NFAA Indoor nationals and to take second with at the 2017 LAS Classic was NEVER paper tuned with indoor or 3D arrows. The bow I'm currently using for national ASA 3D tournaments has never been paper tuned. It seems that now I can eyeball my gear and get it close enough to where I don't paper tune and just go straight to the bale with a bare shaft and start up close. Ultimately I stop even bare shaft tuning and focus on getting the bow to "hold" such that the bow seems to hit the spot even when I think I should have missed! If I had an indoor range in my house I'd probably paper tune more often.
Note: Usually I paper tune when I'm somewhere with a paper rack in front of me and I'm usually doing it out of curiosity. I've had great scoring bows that shot less than perfect holes. I don't try to get bows "paper" perfect. I might try paper if I think something is wrong that I can't see or feel. If I can't seem to get a feel for my bow I'll try just about anything to find what works!
I do NOT spend a lot of time paper tuning anymore IF I paper tune at all. The bow I used to win 2017 NFAA Indoor nationals and to take second with at the 2017 LAS Classic was NEVER paper tuned with indoor or 3D arrows. The bow I'm currently using for national ASA 3D tournaments has never been paper tuned. It seems that now I can eyeball my gear and get it close enough to where I don't paper tune and just go straight to the bale with a bare shaft and start up close. Ultimately I stop even bare shaft tuning and focus on getting the bow to "hold" such that the bow seems to hit the spot even when I think I should have missed! If I had an indoor range in my house I'd probably paper tune more often.
Note: Usually I paper tune when I'm somewhere with a paper rack in front of me and I'm usually doing it out of curiosity. I've had great scoring bows that shot less than perfect holes. I don't try to get bows "paper" perfect. I might try paper if I think something is wrong that I can't see or feel. If I can't seem to get a feel for my bow I'll try just about anything to find what works!
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ALOT. Of good advice and truth I these posts.
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I went from paper tuning with fletched, to bareshafts at 20, and now I just shoot bareshafts through paper at 5 and 15 feet. I like this method the most as form isn't as nearly critical every single shot like it is shooting bareshafts at distances. Plus, if its straight at 5 feet, and 15 feet, I'm of the opinion the fletching is going to do what I need it to do from that point. I have ZERO issues with broadheads at any distance doing this. Plus I can do it all inside.
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It's an unpopular notion here on AT, but perfect arrow flight by bareshaft tuning isn't relevant. Perfect flight by other means of tuning, culminating in group tuning, is the way to go. You're tuning the bow based on fletched arrows and group size versus grip pressures. I've seen several archers have a straight bareshaft that I can shrink their groups and bring their averages up on target by group tuning.
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I've discussed this with Dudley before as I'm sure most know that's what he says too, but I disagree.
I'm curious to the "how" this would be the case on your findings. If a bow is shooting a bareshaft, and let's say you put it in a hooter shooter, and its pounding the same hole time after time, what is causing it to suddenly shoot poor groups when you put fletching on it the shaft?
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This is easy to replicate in a non bow way to see. Take a broom and set it down on the ground handle end down. Then let go. Which way does it fall? Who knows. It'll be different each time.
Now, stand this broom up the same way but with a very slight lean to the left. Let go. It falls left. Every time.
The same is said with arrows. You don't want an arrow to knuckleball out of the bow. Perfectly straight bareshaft scenario.
If your grip pressure isn't 100% perfect every time, the arrow starts in a new direction out of the bow. Like the first example with the broom. If your facial pressure changes, the arrow starts in a different direction. If your release hand comes back more or less to the left, right, up, or down; the arrow comes out differently each time.
Sure you may have, "Perfect bareshaft flight" but what did that do for your groups?
Take that same arrow and give it a slight direction. Then the arrow starts out of the bow the same way each time. The second broom scenario. This allows you to have a more predictable group placement on the target. Meaning not sporadically spread out all over the target. Closer together in one direction.
Why would this be important? Well, it helps you adjust your sight to play the averages. Just like an archer sights in for a high x indoors if they have a tendency to shoot the occasional weak shot and hit low. This is playing the averages.
That's why group tuning is so important. You can put small adjustments into the arrow rest and see your results in your groupings down range. You can continue your adjustments until your groups are as small and consistent as you're capable of making them.
You shoot arrows for score with fletchings. Not as a bareshaft. Tune for how you score just like you practice for the type of game you'll play.
Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
I challenge everyone that insists on perfect bareshaft flight to group tune and adjust the arrow rest to see what you get. Every archer I've ever done this with finds better groupings by adding a slight direction to the arrow.
Start with dropping the height of the arrow rest down in a small amount. Then after you find the vertical spot that works the best, start adjusting the arrow rest out away from the riser and see if it's better or worse. Worse? Adjust it in towards the riser.
I've found my left and rights stay a lot closer to dead center than my ups and downs on my arrow rest adjustments.
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Ok, so I've always heard that argument, and can see how one would believe that. But to continue on the point you made and that argument. You stated that if bareshaft was perfect, every shot, it could be OK....cause it comes out the same every time. But since grip, and whatever doesn't let it, then its best to give it a direction. So let's say we do that, and we give it a direction. But after we do that, we still have some grip inconsistencies, and while we gave it a direction, let's assume the same scenario applies and not every shot has the same amount of direction....some shots simply have more. Then what?
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Aerodynamics is a very complicated subject. But, we can skip the math, and use our results to guide us, when tuning. Sorry, not a chance that folks who try to model how a ballistic missile flys at subsonic speeds, none of them use a broomstick to simulate subsonic flight. Wind tunnels, definitely. Broomstick on the ground, nope. So, what does this picture tell us?
Well, at 20 yards, we can see the FLETCHED arrows all smacking together at the tips. But, the Un-Fletched arrow, the arrow with ZERO steering correction, is WAY too much direction. BACK end is sky high. Front end is way low. BUT, hey, the fletched arrows are all smacking together. Nobody shoots a tournament with a bareshaft, right? Bareshafts are a tuning tool. Must learn how to read the "tea leaves". See, this shooter wanted to BOOST his x-count. He already shoots regular 300 scores all the time on the NFAA target. BUT, he had a tournament a week later, and wanted to boost his x-count as high as possible. So, when you have TOO much direction on the bareshaft, this is telling you the shooter, that MORE x-rings are waiting for you, if you know what to do. Let's look at the FIRST picture again. What does this FIRST picture tell us?
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The bareshaft has ZERO error in the horizontal direction. POINT of impact is perfectly 6-o'clock low. BUT, we have a massive EXCESS direction on the bareshaft, in the vertical direction. TAIL end of the bareshaft is SKY HIGH. So, now what? Is this a form issue? Nope. Expert level shooter. When dealing with an expert level shooter, focus on making his equipment more "FORGIVING". We will know we are on the right track, based on new scores, after we are done tweaking the equipment. TEST....TEST...TEST. Forget theory. IF you did a GOOD thing, then, the RESULTS will confirm you did a GOOD thing. So, let's skip ahead shall we? Turned out the issue was the arrow rest. After the arrow rest was fixed, here are the NEW results.
Told the expert shooter to do my stress test. THat means fire ONE arrow (fletched) at your training distance. PUT down the bow. PULL out the arrow. Fire that one arrow again. THis way, no tournament grade arrows are destroyed. THIS way, since I have folks shoot 30 shots, the law of averages will show you the GOOD shots, the BAD shots and the in-between shots. This gives you a TRUE picture, if the RESULTS are better or not. So, he goes whole hog and shoots my stress test at 20 yards. He did not have time to mess around.
ONE fletched arrow fired 21 times. He stopped at this point, cuz he was satisfied that his x-count was now substantially higher than before. Yup, he won his age class later that week at the Mid West Open. So, did he mess up his bullet hole? No idea. Don't care. So, what does his bareshaft look like at 20 yards? Don't know. Don't care. Went straight to the final test, which was to check groups with his fletched tournament arrows at 20 yards. ONE arrow diameter accuracy. 1/4 inch fletched groups at 20 yards. IN this case, the bareshaft results were a diagnostic tool, that told me where to fix things. Carry on.
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Then it still comes out of the bow in the same direction. That's why giving it the starting direction helps with group size and consistent direction of the group to help you sight in.
If the broom leans to the left and you give it a small push right, but not severe enough to send it past the neutral balance point of falling right, it'll still fall to the left. Same if you push forward on it some, it'll fall left and forward some.
To correlate that to a bow, you'd have torquing the grip. You wouldn't torque the grip so much that you derailed the bow or turned the sight a whole new direction. You'd notice that much torque. No, you'll put a slight different pressure into the grip that's not as detectable. That small inconsistency is the same as the broom scenario above. The arrow will still come out in the intended direction, just wobble some in the air and not correct itself as immediately as it would with the proper grip pressure. That'll open the group up some, but instead of the arrow landing six inches left at 50, you may only have it land 2 inches left.
Again, for anyone that feels differently or thinks their perfect bareshaft flight is the greatest, I challenge you to try my group tuning method in my above post. You'll be surprised what you find.
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I don't understand why people even shoot a bare shaft through paper? There is no need, just shoot into a foam target and read the nock. I start at 10 yards, get poi and entry perfect and then move back to 20. I am happy after I get them dialed in at 20.
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Maxima Red SD's out of my Reign 7.
Maxima Red SD's out of my Reign 7.
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It tells me I'm still bothering you and you possibly don't have me blocked like you said. Unless you just saw it off the repost above that is. Which is possible. ;-)
All kidding aside. Using your results based tuning motto, I'd say that group tuning with a fletched arrow that you'll use in competition is about as results based as it gets.
Your scenario of a bareshaft being way out of whack, not quite on par with the topic at hand on fine tuning, but sure you may have a bow that's badly tuned and in that case, there's more starting work that needs to be done. But it could also just be a nock travel issue. Take for instance my HyperEdge. The horrible 2.0 cam nock high tear. I found my best groups on target with a bareshaft waaaaaaaay low. Because I group tuned.
Like this:
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well, to be honest, the OP asked about BARESHAFT tuning, not your group tuning. Just sayin'
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