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Mbugland

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
In the random trolling and scouring of the forum there have been references to extra long limbs... was curious who makes them, and what lengths you get out of them.
Have to assume they are smoother to 30-32” draw folks... if they are decent construction.
Thanks in advance! This ILF rabbit hole is consuming more thought and reading than I prefer.
 
#2 ·
I'm pretty sure, Sky, Dryad, Uukha and Border currently offer extra long limbs.
 
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#3 ·
M -

Limb length/bow length depends on draw length and there's a pretty big difference between 30" and 32".
Your call, but even at 32", the odds are you don't need them.

Viper1 out.
 
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#4 ·
Mbugland said:
In the random trolling and scouring of the forum there have been references to extra long limbs... was curious who makes them, and what lengths you get out of them.
Have to assume they are smoother to 30-32” draw folks... if they are decent construction.
Thanks in advance! This ILF rabbit hole is consuming more thought and reading than I prefer.
Click to expand...
Find a company that makes an ILF riser that is 27 inches then any long ILF limb will give you 72 AMO-- the long ILF riser is the key to a diverse selection of limbs.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Understandably all things are dependent on others... I was really trying to keep in the hunting riser lengths of 17&19... but have contemplated the 21. I have a warf that is 21 at the moment and primary is a 17” Satori riser. Just missed out on the WF19 at a deal that I thought would have been my long term riser choice.
I have been shooting two sets of limbs, the Hoyt came with a set of Medium 55s (which I have been told are measured against a 21” riser @55) and I picked up a set of TradTech Long 55s, which do feel noticeably smoother at 31”. Initially I was drawing to 31.5 according to the the shop, changed an anchor point a little and based on the arrow tip left on the shelf, and playing the marker game, I’m at 31, and have been for the last couple months.

I had stopped looking into Border and Dryad limbs initially, because I had identified this as a rather wide rabbit hole and didn’t want to throw as much money at it, but I have enjoyed a bit of an consistency boost and a little more accuracy that has me wanting to venture further.

Before venturing into the Border, static tips, and super curves.... thought I would try out the extra long idea to get more from the draw cycle, rather than just going with a longer riser to ease finger pinch... I haven’t thrown the longs on the 21” riser... guess I need to go make a string for that and see what that feels like, $20 string gamble I guess.
 
#6 ·
Of course you don't need extra long limbs. I have a 32 inch draw and I have shot everything from a 70 to 74 inch bow. A 70 inch bow is fine but you are shooting on the upper limit of the draw length range.

One thing I like about my 74 inch bow is that it likely puts me in the middle of the spec range for the bow. Folks with normal draw lengths have an easy time finding bows they can shoot in the middle of the spec range.

It is a luxury to be solidly in the spec range if you have a long draw. The bows will work beyond that. I test 70 inch bows out to 33 inches on my shooting machine. They work, but that does not mean that there are not better options.

74 is certainly not necessary. I went that long because I am stringwalking and it gives me a very long string that helps stabilize my bow when I walk the string.

I think 72 inch bows are great for a 32 inch draw. I have shot both long limbs on a 27 inch riser and extra long on a 25. Both are good.

From what I know, none of the big Olympic bow manufacturers like Hoyt or Win Win make extra long limbs. Jim Castro probably has the correct list. I have two sets that are both Border.
 
#7 ·
I have a 30" draw, and shoot primarily hunting oriented bows. As far as ILF setups i have a 17 Dalaa and long limbs for it. A 62" overall setup. Even if you set the bolts to almost all the way in, they dont really stack between 28"-30". I like them a full turn in from all the way out and i see about 5lbs between 28" and my full 30" draw. My point being long ilf limbs will reach a long way even in a relatively short setup. Sure you could get out further with longer limbs, but a longer riser would probably do the same thing. It might be more forgiving simply because of the added weight. My understanding is xl limbs are geared towards shorter risers for hunting and 3d. Maybe someone else has a different opinion.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
#8 ·
It could be true that extra long limbs were intended for shorter risers. That would explain why Hoyt and Win Win do not make them. The other reason may be that they don't want to add new tooling and/or complexity to their manufacturing process without a clear demand.

The demand may be greater from hunters than target shooters.
 
#9 ·
I thought about trying some XLs for my 17" Dalaa. With a 32" draw I start to feel a small amount of stack on that riser and am slightly less accurate, but regular longs feel great on my 19" Satori. That would still leave me with another 64" bow so no point unless I want to try a 15" riser. I'm trying to find something shorter and comfortable since I only hunt.
 
#10 ·
So, does anyone publish a comprehensive book or article on ILF rigs? I'm picking up tidbits here and there, generally after the fact. For instance, I didn't know that my 30 lb limbs on a 17" riser actually pull nearly 38 lbs. The lb markings on the limbs are measured for 25" risers. This thread made me wonder if there is a "one stop shop" for learning the nuances of ILF.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
I have been affectionately referring to my ILF rig as “Malibu Barbie”. There are way too many option and accessories to go with. Glad I started with the complete Satori, then went to another limb set, and a warf... still don’t think I’m very far down the rabbit hole at all. Tried to kinda dork with the satori by feel and failed miserably... took it apart and walked through all of Fred’s videos about the bow and setup. Helped a lot, smoothed a lot of things out that didn’t make sense and now do. There’s a whole lot of information out there, not really all in one place, honestly the folks at Lancaster are more than happy to talk you through a lot (heard it from more than one and tried it a time or two)

You know, I’m sure there actually is something compiled on the olympic side of the house, doesn’t seem to be compiled on the hunter trad bow outcast side of the house... but it’s getting There.
 
#12 ·
Youngmarine, please forgive my jumping to conclusions here, but I think that if you say a 62” inch bow stacks a little bit at your 32” draw, then you probably don’t know what stacking is. You probably just think that that is how a bow is supposed to feel. Other people, with shorter draws, would consider what you are feeling to be a ridiculously high amount of stacking.

I don’t have that much experience, but I thought the same thing for my first couple years before I got into longer ILF rigs and especially super recurve limbs. Now that I can draw back without being punished during those last couple inches, it has made archery so much more enjoyable to me.

I don’t hunt, so my following comment might be dangerously ignorant, but I would argue that for most long draw hunters, the benefits of a longer bow outweigh the detriments. I’m 6’6” tall, so I’m not exactly nimble when ducking through tight spots anyway. A 68” bow in my hands looks proportionally similar to a 62” bow in most other people’s hands. Yes a longer bow is more awkward when pushing through overgrowth or when trying to get a shot off at an unexpected angle, but such is life for us tall guys.
 
#13 ·
I find hard numerical data on this subject a bit difficult to find. Generally search for "draw force bow graph" or "draw force curves" to get some good hard data. Long and short of it (punny) discussed above- for guys like you and I with 32-33" draw lengths, longer limbs are less challenging to draw back on the force/inch at the end of draw, and the change in how much you have to pull is "smoother". Additionally you likely get some stability due to having more rotational inertia in limbs against torques left and right/bad grip/etc.

Blackie Schwartz has some published material at on a single TradTech Titan (I believe 17") riser, moving from short to long limbs - http://www.crossbowreports.com/ilf-bows/bf-extreme/bf-extreme.htm example image from his site below.

Check comparison done here by a couple real technical thinkers on bows- "Hank Thoreau" and "Sid". Sid I believe owns Border Archery, makes some fantastic limbs. https://tradtalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-65785.html
 
#14 ·
I have an extensive database of test results. I originated the use of the first derivative of the draw force curve to measure smoothness and stacking, originally as a means of understanding how super recurves differ from limbs with conventional geometries.

I find these curves much more useful than draw force curves since first derivatives are excellent at highlighting features that are difficult to identify in their parent curves, in this case, draw force curves.

The first derivative is essentially the actual pounds/inch you are pulling at each inch of the draw cycle. So if your bow is following the old 2 pounds per inch rule of thumb for every inch past 28, then that is what the first derivative curve will show.

In reality, there is a very particular profile to this curve. Where certain features during draw, such as the point where pounds/inch is least, can be manipulated by bow design.

I also take the approach that we learn by comparisons. My analysis process and program is designed to compare bows. All my graphs allow me to create peer groups of up to four bows and to chart the data together.

That way you can see how bows perform compared to bows in their class. If we could change one feature at a time, we could tell what the impact of that feature is. The problem is that it is difficult to find a peer group of bows where on a single feature is altered.

If anyone has the ability of measuring draw force data to 0.1 to 0.2 pound accuracy, I will process that data and compare it to a peer group of bows in my database. I have done this many times for folks and provided a PDF report.

I may also have data for bows of interest, or something similar. The problem is that there are too many bow configurations possible and it is impossible to keep up.

I can add efficiency comparisons if chrono data is provided.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
This is all absolutely amazing, the depth of what has been analyzed, and some of the data that exists. SO MY ASSUMPTION IS THAT hank, you could truly speak to the difference of a long limb on a 17” riser vs 19” and where you would feel that in the draw cycle vise “more perceived finger pinch”
....and all in raw numbers, outside of the felt or perceived stability of a longer riser and the weight gain.

I have been stuck in the desire to go 19”....if for nothing more than the desire for ATA mounting holes in my riser (since my Satori 17” is barren). I want to have some other justifiable means for the jump, and hope that I can figure that out. If not going to XL Limbs, maybe jumping up in riser size has some value. Honestly have been leaning towards the WF19 but have also contemplated the tradtech titan or the the next size up the satori chain.
All that may kinda hold as I now venture down the super curve rabbit hole and see what they are all about. Guess I need to take another road trip and find so test subjects.

Thank you all for the amazing insight, I have been going backwards 20 or so pages at a time and trying to ore read some of the things I can before opening more doors here.
 
#16 ·
The biggest area where I have been unable to test is different length risers. I don't have the risers to test with. Some day I will find some old junker risers in various lengths that I can use as test platforms.

The data that I do have for shorter risers was submitted to me by others, and I did the analysis. I would like to be able to test the same limbs on different risers to see how performance changes.
 
#17 ·
Stunchy said:
Youngmarine, please forgive my jumping to conclusions here, but I think that if you say a 62” inch bow stacks a little bit at your 32” draw, then you probably don’t know what stacking is. You probably just think that that is how a bow is supposed to feel. Other people, with shorter draws, would consider what you are feeling to be a ridiculously high amount of stacking.

I don’t have that much experience, but I thought the same thing for my first couple years before I got into longer ILF rigs and especially super recurve limbs. Now that I can draw back without being punished during those last couple inches, it has made archery so much more enjoyable to me.

I don’t hunt, so my following comment might be dangerously ignorant, but I would argue that for most long draw hunters, the benefits of a longer bow outweigh the detriments. I’m 6’6” tall, so I’m not exactly nimble when ducking through tight spots anyway. A 68” bow in my hands looks proportionally similar to a 62” bow in most other people’s hands. Yes a longer bow is more awkward when pushing through overgrowth or when trying to get a shot off at an unexpected angle, but such is life for us tall guys.
Click to expand...
I'm a muscular guy so it's possible a small amount of stacking to me may be a lot to someone else. I haven't shot a ton of recurves, but enough to learn they feel different based on design, not strictly length. I just got rid of a 64" Bear Super Kodiak, because it did not feel or shoot as well as my 62" DAS. Generally, a longer bow feels better, but not always the case. I had a recurve limb hit stand after shooting a deer behind me last year with a 64" Satori. If they always walked in front I would surely carry a longer bow while hunting, but I only hunt from a stand and many times have to shoot from awkward positions to minimize movement at close range. I also have a 66" DAS and yes, it feels better, but come hunting season I will likely be grabbing my shorter bow since it is slightly more maneuverable. It's good to hear what other long draw shooters are using as I'm not opposed to trying new bows or limbs if I come across them for a reasonable price.
 
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Hank D Thoreau
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