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Supraspinatus

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm working on my technique and have triangular shoulder alignment as a form goal. It's my understanding that pretty much all Olympic recurve teaching traditions at this point have embraced triangular alignment (line from draw elbow through arrow meets at line passing through both shoulders and bow arm).

However, some limited photos I've seen have me wondering how far different traditions are taking it. I have the impression that KSL emphasizes this form a little more strictly than the Korean National Team, for instance. The latter seem to accept a more trapezoidal alignment, where the two lines are closer to parallel. The Koreans also seem to accept the draw elbow being a little outside the arrow line.

Anyway, can anyone point me in the direction of good overhead photos and videos showing the alignment of high-level archers? That includes traditional archers as well.

Thanks
 

There's some good stuff here in this thread and his video seminar.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
IMO overhead shots are not useful for study unless you have overhead shots of yourself to compare with. A coach is the better guide here, in any case.
Yeah, I have an unlimited amount of overhead video of myself;)

My root question or dilemma, and why I started this thread, is that I have made the "Wedge" alignment a form goal. But I'm realizing that it might not be possible to achieve this alignment with a side of face anchor and not hit the nose.

The problem is that rotating the shoulder girdle clockwise (for right hander) limits how much one can turn the head back counterclockwise. So the nose is left hanging in front of the string.

This Wedge alignment was developed by target archers using under the chin anchors. For them, the string is on the tip of the nose, so no problem. But lifting the anchor up to the side of the face puts the string behind the nose.

The only way to avoid clipping the nose with a side of face anchor is to turn the head as far as possible toward the bow. But as far as possible is actually reduced by about 20 degrees because the shoulders are rotated in the other direction to attain the Wedge alignment. If one has "normal" neck range of motion - 90 degrees of rotation - the leftover 70 degrees might, or should, be enough.

I can attain this and miss my nose, but I lose string alignment. With the face turned this far toward the bow, the string is quite right of the right eye, so the string is far to the right of the riser.

Jake Kaminski talks about this in his videos about his Barebow anchor:


Jake mentions that he could avoid clipping his nose with a corner of mouth anchor by turning his head more than he's used to. But to get string alignment, he needed to turn and cant his face back toward the string, which put the nose back in front of the string.

His solution was to lower his anchor about as far as one can without slipping off the face. For string walking this works for him. But shooting instinctively with the arrow so low is troublesome. It also requires a really tall riser sight window.

In this video featuring the coach Arne Moe, the archer is struggling with the nose clipping issue:


At 34:20, the archer, DIY Sportsman, and Arne discuss Wedge alignment as it relates to nose clipping. The archer brings up "Terry's Form Clock", which is like old-style Olympic alignment, with the shoulder girdle and arrow line parallel with each other. Arne says that each archer has to decide how far to take it, and that many archers shoot very well without achieving the full Wedge.

My impression right now is that the Wedge is not possible with a side of face anchor unless one is OK with taping the nose. I'm not. So I'm trying to figure out whether a) I need to abandon my secondary goal of having the string in front of my eye and so available to align with the arrow or riser, or b) abandon the Wedge and "settle' for a less triangular alignment.

Asking for photos of high-level archers from overhead seemed the way to determine how important the Wedge really is. I have the impression that the Korean Olympic archers are not as determined to achieve ideal Wedge alignment. That is one thing I'd like to confirm with photo so video evidence.
 
S -

Go back upstairs to the FITA forum and read my reply.
And as far as the clipping the nose thing, it's why you need a coach, but clearing the nose certainly not impossible.
Image


By the way, you are really over thinking this.

Viper1 out.
.
 
Yeah, I have an unlimited amount of overhead video of myself;)

My root question or dilemma, and why I started this thread, is that I have made the "Wedge" alignment a form goal. But I'm realizing that it might not be possible to achieve this alignment with a side of face anchor and not hit the nose.

The problem is that rotating the shoulder girdle clockwise (for right hander) limits how much one can turn the head back counterclockwise. So the nose is left hanging in front of the string.

This Wedge alignment was developed by target archers using under the chin anchors. For them, the string is on the tip of the nose, so no problem. But lifting the anchor up to the side of the face puts the string behind the nose.

The only way to avoid clipping the nose with a side of face anchor is to turn the head as far as possible toward the bow. But as far as possible is actually reduced by about 20 degrees because the shoulders are rotated in the other direction to attain the Wedge alignment. If one has "normal" neck range of motion - 90 degrees of rotation - the leftover 70 degrees might, or should, be enough.

I can attain this and miss my nose, but I lose string alignment. With the face turned this far toward the bow, the string is quite right of the right eye, so the string is far to the right of the riser.

Jake Kaminski talks about this in his videos about his Barebow anchor:


Jake mentions that he could avoid clipping his nose with a corner of mouth anchor by turning his head more than he's used to. But to get string alignment, he needed to turn and cant his face back toward the string, which put the nose back in front of the string.

His solution was to lower his anchor about as far as one can without slipping off the face. For string walking this works for him. But shooting instinctively with the arrow so low is troublesome. It also requires a really tall riser sight window.

In this video featuring the coach Arne Moe, the archer is struggling with the nose clipping issue:


At 34:20, the archer, DIY Sportsman, and Arne discuss Wedge alignment as it relates to nose clipping. The archer brings up "Terry's Form Clock", which is like old-style Olympic alignment, with the shoulder girdle and arrow line parallel with each other. Arne says that each archer has to decide how far to take it, and that many archers shoot very well without achieving the full Wedge.

My impression right now is that the Wedge is not possible with a side of face anchor unless one is OK with taping the nose. I'm not. So I'm trying to figure out whether a) I need to abandon my secondary goal of having the string in front of my eye and so available to align with the arrow or riser, or b) abandon the Wedge and "settle' for a less triangular alignment.

Asking for photos of high-level archers from overhead seemed the way to determine how important the Wedge really is. I have the impression that the Korean Olympic archers are not as determined to achieve ideal Wedge alignment. That is one thing I'd like to confirm with photo so video evidence.
Interesting. Good response.

I have the wedge style alignment with side anchor but don't hit the nose. Close, but doesn't happen. Perhaps it's not 'full wedge' but a coach checked my alignment recently and said I'm still in a good place. Normal length nose! I use string blur for bow/arrow alignment.

Goes to show we're all built different.
 
My root question or dilemma, and why I started this thread, is that I have made the "Wedge" alignment a form goal. But I'm realizing that it might not be possible to achieve this alignment with a side of face anchor and not hit the nose.
I shoot barebow recurve and have a high anchor under my cheekbone. You can absolutely achieve this. It does take some practice and time to figure out (yup, I have done the hitting my nose and lips thing). A session with a coach can help, especially in achieving the alignment (learning to rotate your shoulders into alignment as you draw helps a great deal), but there is a lot you can do one your own. Your head position and stance is important as well in achieving this. I have a very high shoulder and, for me, this was one of the trickiest things to figure out. But it is certainly possible--other barebow archers have achieved this as well.

(Note, while I value Jake's videos, he is not a barebow archer (he admits this himself). Because of the adjustable sight, Olympic recurve archers can achieve a biomechanically efficient position better with a bow, for example, with an under the jaw anchor. It is a bit more complex for barebow with a fixed sight (arrow tip) not in an ideal position for sighting. But there is a lot to learn from Olympic style shooting.)
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
S -

Go back upstairs to the FITA forum and read my reply.
And as far as the clipping the nose thing, it's why you need a coach, but clearing the nose certainly not impossible.
View attachment 7727645

By the way, you are really over thinking this.

Viper1 out.
.
I came for the edification, but all I got was the condescension.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
I shoot barebow recurve and have a high anchor under my cheekbone. You can absolutely achieve this. It does take some practice and time to figure out (yup, I have done the hitting my nose and lips thing). A session with a coach can help, especially in achieving the alignment (learning to rotate your shoulders into alignment as you draw helps a great deal), but there is a lot you can do one your own. Your head position and stance is important as well in achieving this. I have a very high shoulder and, for me, this was one of the trickiest things to figure out. But it is certainly possible--other barebow archers have achieved this as well.

(Note, while I value Jake's videos, he is not a barebow archer (he admits this himself). Because of the adjustable sight, Olympic recurve archers can achieve a biomechanically efficient position better with a bow, for example, with an under the jaw anchor. It is a bit more complex for barebow with a fixed sight (arrow tip) not in an ideal position for sighting. But there is a lot to learn from Olympic style shooting.)
Hi Hikari, Thank you. I did forget to mention that I prefer a lower anchor, more or less because I think it's probably a little easier on the draw shoulder. But after reading this, I did play around with some higher anchors and had some success missing the nose. However, I'm away from home and won't know if I'm still in alignment until I have a chance to get the cell camera overhead again;) But thanks much for the encouragement.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Interesting. Good response.

I have the wedge style alignment with side anchor but don't hit the nose. Close, but doesn't happen. Perhaps it's not 'full wedge' but a coach checked my alignment recently and said I'm still in a good place. Normal length nose! I use string blur for bow/arrow alignment.

Goes to show we're all built different.
Thanks, Remote. Encouraging. Where is your anchor point?
 
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