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Tony Trietch

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I am starting to wonder if my bow is set up properly.
i purchased a new switchback xt last month and had the pro shop set up the rest, loop, peep and paper tune. i immediately thought some looked wrong but choose to trust the pro. i am shooting a mathews convertable rest in the drop away mode and there are a couple things that appear out of wack.
first off my string loop is not centered on the string. it measures 14 3/8" down from top axle and 16 1/4" up from the lower axle. when arrow is put on string and drop away rest is lifted (bow not drawn) the arrow is not square with the string. it appears to be pointed up considerably. also, when the rest is lifted up to where is at when at full draw, the arrows is about 3/8" above the berger hole. i thought it was supposed to be levelwith it.

the second issue is my left/ right alingment. when i hold up bow and line up the string, arrow and pins, the pinns seem to be very left of the other two. it would make sense to me that if every thing is lined up properly that the three should all be alinged. my arrows look two me as if they kick to the left at shot, but the paper tuned perfect at 3 yards and at 10 yards.

what made me question this set up was the performance i am getting with broad heads at 30+ yards. my feild points and broadheads group very well together up to 30. then after that my fp's group decent at 40-50, but bh's are very inconsistant. after 30 yards they go all over the place. i have concentrated on my form to ensure that i was not the problem, and the fp's i beleive prove that i am not torquing the bow.

any help would be great.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I just had the same thing happen to me. Bought my Tribute at a big name pro shop and wasn't/still am not real comfortable with the set up. The guy I had been dealing with is gone for the next 2 weeks the other 2 working archery just seemed a bit off. I got home and started sighting it in and my odd vane (down) was/is making contact with my rest. So I turned it odd vane up. So now I'm going to take to an actual nothing but archery shop and see what the guy (which I'm comfotable with but doesn't sell Bowtech) says.

It doesn't seem like my string, rest and sights are lined up either. Plus the odd vane has black marks where you can tell it was makin contact with the rest and the rest has marks where you can tell the fletching has run across it.

Set up on my last bow seemed a lot more effortless then this!
 
#4 ·
If you measurements are correct you axle to axle length is too long. It's not uncommon for the string to stretch a little when just starting to shoot it. This will often lower the nocking point on a single cam as roughly 3/4 of the string is above the nock point.
One other thing is that your arrows might be a little on the weak side looking at your signature, weak arrows will often tear high with a level setup.
I'd get it back in spec as far as axle to axle, brace height & cam alignment then start tuning. JMHO
 
#7 ·
On some bows the center of the riser is at the pivot point of the grip, on others it is at the shelf. I don't know of any bows that center on the berger holes. SO... the d-loop will never be at the center of the string.

Bow shops all have there own personalities and have bow techs that also have there own personalities. They set bows up differently and this does not mean they are wrong. I have very different bow setup ideas from my competitors I shoot against and their way is certainly not the wrong way. I am not going to sit here at the computer and criticize any bow shops setup if I don't have it in my hands.

This being said, I do not see how a bow can group just fine at 30 and not group at 40 or 50. An arrow is well stabilized by 30. A 2" 30 yard group will equal a 4" 60 yard group. There are times with a field point that groups will open up disproportionately at longer distance, but with a broadhead I don't see it happening. A broadhead will mess up right out of the bow and will show problems well before 30 yards. The distance issues are your own.

Now is the best time to learn to set your bow up yourself. It's a rare time that I can paper tune someone else's bow and have it work for them. I can't really see any bowtech doing this for a customer on a regular basis either. The best bow shops will have you shoot while they assist you in tuning. You may pay for this range time, but it is well worth it. I would never expect a shop to provide this without charge. The setup you got should be free of charge, but you are going to have to fine tune it.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
i was the shooter when it was paper tuned. they did the adjusting, but i was the shooter.
the distance has me bewildered. i don't change a thing from my 30 yard shot to my 40 yard shot, minus the change in pins. but it goes from a 4-6" group @30 to all over the block @ 40 & 50. but only with the bh's. feild tips dont group as well @ 40 & 50 as they do @ 30 but there is a big diferance with the bh's.
 
#9 ·
what kind of BH?

What is your FOC of your arrows?Arrow length, fletching type etc?

Are your arrows spined correctly for your new set up? Axis 400's with 85grn heads may have a low FOC (which as I understand can be bad for longer range shooting) and/or spine for your set up. Are these new arrows for this bow, or are they carry over from a previous set up? What is total arrow weight? Did you spin check the BH's/arrows for alignment?

Have you done any other "tuning" methods, such as walk back tuning? paper tuning is just the first step and I only paper tune to get in the "ball park."

Just remember that 1 or 2 inches off at 20-30yards is going to open up consiterably at 40-50yards.

You say that your 30yard groups is 4-6inches (is this BH's, FP's or combo of BH's and FP's), which could point to some form/grip/practice issues. My 30yard groups with Slick Tricks is right around 1 inch for 3 arrows. Are your BH's hitting with your FP's? If they dont hit together at 40yards chances are they prob dont at 20yards. What is the distance between FP's and BH's at 20yards and 40yards? Could you be trying to "peek" at the longer shots causing them to spread out?

As for the set of up of your bow I would have it checked out by another shop or take it back and have them explain why they set it up that way and tell them your concerns and what is going on.

Also may be a great time to invest in LeEarls tuning DVD. Have you dowloaded Eastons Tuning Guide from their site? May also help.

My arrows are above my Berger Hole on my Tribute, but bow shoots perfect for me every time.

If all else fails, have a buddy shoot the bow and see what it does. Experiment with broad heads and shafts and re-assess what you consider to be your maximum ethical bow shot in the woods. While I shoot very well and practice alot, my max shot on a deer is a strict 35yards, despite the size/rack of the deer.

Hope some of this helps,

J-
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
thaks for the reply jjc155. i am shooting the g5 montec practice heads now. arrow length is 27.5" with blazers set with slight offset.
i purchased my arrows for this set up and was assured that they were spined correctly for my set up. (not by the same pro shop that sold me my mathews)

i have not spin checked my broadheads. that is one thing i will go do tomorrow with a trip topro shop. my groups at 4-6" groups at 30 yards i described were with the fps and the bhs, three of each. after 30-35 they don't just group differantly, they fly all over.
i don't know what you mean by peeking. man, i have alot to learn!!!
 
#11 ·
By "peeking" I mean literally peeking after the arrow is shot to see the impact. It can be such a subconscious thing that you will do it while the arrow is leaving the bow, which can throw the arrow off of its perfect flight. Think of it as along the line of lifing your head while hitting a golf shot.

I find that I have more of a problem with it at longer distance then closer distance. To combat this my shot sequence does not end until the arrow hits the target whether it is 15yards or 50yards, I dont drop my bow, move my head and anything for that matter (outside of the natural "recoil" of the shot) from my shot location, which forces me not to peek. This is also one of the reasons that I limit myself to 35yards while hunting. I have more of a chance of peeking at an arrow on the way towards Bullwinkle!:embara:

As for your arrows, maybe try shooting a 100grn montec to see if that helps. Maybe that your FOC is alittle off. ALso I shoot my blazers with as much Helical that I can get on them with my Bitzenbeger jig. It doesnt look like much but does help. Also make sure your arrow ends are square. The G5 squaring tool pays for itself very quickly, in my opinion.

I'll try running your set up on On Target to see what I can come up with.

Also I dont know if this would hold true with the Montecs, but I have found that practice heads sometimes fly differently than hunting heads. This was with Muzzy's, but attributed that to the different blade design between the practice and hunting heads. Prob not the issue with the montecs though due to their construction.

Also just spitballing here, but make sure your'e not punching your release and u are gettin' a good straight back follow through with ur release hand.

Hope atleast some of this is helping. I'll let you know what On Target comes up with for your arrows.

J-
 
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#12 ·
I ran your arrows on ON Target with some real general info and it showed them as pretty weak in spine and with about 8.5 FOC. These were for Axis arrows, there wasnt the Axis ST's on the program. But this was with real general weights for inserts/nocks/ and quesses for string weight etc.

You can down load a trial of the On Target program which may help you out with some more specific info. I think the company that makes it is Pinwheel software and the program is On Target 2.

Could be the arrows but maybe not. Though this may account for your rest being out to the left/or the arrows kicking. Did you check for vane clearance?

May just need some more practice with your new bow/BH's

When you say that your BH's are "everywhere" out past 30yards, they are not grouping at all, say to the left of your FP's? They are just peppered all over the target in relationship to your FP's?

If it is the second it sounds more like form related or FOC. If they are grouping right/left it is most likely spine or center shot related. If they are above/below it is nock/rest height.

Good thing you are working on this now. I got a buddy that would be trying to figure this out on Sept 30th.:eek:

We'll get it figured out before Oct 1.

J-
 
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Discussion starter · #13 ·
it helps so much to hear those tid bits of advice like "punching the release", i found my self doing just that tonight. thanks for your help. i will try the bh alingment test tomorow. i have some slick trick 100 on the way, i will try those and see if there is a diff.
 
#14 ·
You wrote,"when arrow is put on string and drop away rest is lifted (bow not drawn) the arrow is not square with the string. it appears to be pointed up considerably."

This is not good. I have never seen a bow and arrow combination shoot well if the nock was below square. Your paper tune would indicate otherwise, but I'd bet something else is amiss. Are you sure that the rest is coming all the way up against the internal stops in the rest when you draw the bow? This may explain why it appears nock low while holding the rest up with your fingers. It may not be this way at all when you actually draw the bow.

You wrote, "my feild points and broadheads group very well together up to 30. then after that my fp's group decent at 40-50, but bh's are very inconsistant. after 30 yards they go all over the place."

Fixed blade broadheads require more stabilization than do field points. My bet is that if you went to longer fletching, or more aggressive offset or helical on your current fletching, your broadhead groups would tighten up at longer ranges.

You wrote, "when i hold up bow and line up the string, arrow and pins, the pinns seem to be very left of the other two. it would make sense to me that if every thing is lined up properly that the three should all be alinged."

Nope. Your pins are nearly always left of the arrow when viewed from behind, for a right handed archer. There may be more reasons for this, but the two main reasons are: Since the bow uses a cable guard, it pulls the cable and string to the right. As you draw the bow, the limbs actually flex to the right, and move to the left when the bow is fired. This propels the arrow slightly left of the visual reference plane we see, when looking at the arrow from behind the bow when the arrow is on the rest. The other reason is that our bow hand and arm come into the bow grip from a slight angle to the left. Whether we want to admit it or not, we induce a small amount of torque to the bow every time we draw it. Don't believe me? Look at the distance between the cable and the arrow when the bow is at rest, and compare it to the distance between the two at full draw. You will usually see that the distance is slightly smaller when at full draw. This torque causes the front of the bow (the side that the sight is on) to move slightly to the right, which moves the pins to the right, getting them closer to the center of the arrow, where we imagine they should have been in the first place.
 
#15 ·
TC, anything new on your troubles?

Just wondering, one Michigan archer to another,

J-
 
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#16 ·
That's why I learned how to do things for myself. There are really no good pro shops where I use to live, and I've learned so much here on AT that I do all my own bow work, unless it's a warrenty job.

Set you axle to axle, centershot, and nock level, and go from there, good luck.
 
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