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Korean coach – Team USA. This style is very specific and has been attributed to Lee’s observations over the years and what he believes to be the most biomechanically efficient method available today. There are no similarities of the Korean method or basic understanding of what constitutes typical good form.

Korean coach – Team Mexico. This style is what has been taught for years worldwide and it is what the Korean method was in the 1980’s through about 2010. (Which, by the way has been very American for years).

Korean coach – Team Korea. This style has many similarities as the older Korean method, with just a slight change or dramatic as to the movement of the follow through. This style was similar to the 1960’s and early 1970’s method being taught in the US.

Although three different styles and yet under one coaching system? No, just one country of coaches who have varied their styles to either satisfy their own belief or to work in the culture they are representing. There is only one coach of this group who may represent the cultural change but I doubt it and that is the Korean coach working with the Mexican team. He has transformed a group of archers into very classic style and yet, if an archer deviates from that style it appears that he works with the individual. One of the male archers, Alverez, uses a unique draw method that is not common. Also, Serrano grasps the string with his fingers in a very unique way. However, both are on the team and did very well. This is a sign that the coach must be a bit flexible.

Lee’s coaching style. Starting with the Korean method that he learned in the 1980’s and 1990’s he has decided to go “rouge” and offer a different approach to his coaching style. It is hard to say that it does not work since he has been so successful. However, if you look at how the Korean team shot (their technique) when he was the coach, you will see that the style is entirely different to the US team. If you also look at the Australians and their technique when he was the coach there it was very similar to the old Korean method. For some reason he has decided that there is a better way and he has made those changes in the US. Does it work? Yes. Is it the best way? So far it has not proven as such but it can be said that the method works. It does require more rigorous training and it demands more strength than any other shooting method used. This is the reason that recreational archers will struggle to master this style of shooting. However, they can master about 75-80% of the method, which is quite similar to traditional style techniques. The remaining 20-25% should be considered once the archer reaches a specific area of expertise. However, I am not sure that Lee will allow an archer to be an RA or JDT if they do not commit 100% to his teaching style.

The Korean coach with the Mexican team is without a doubt an excellent coach who has worked with the team for some time. The style and technique used by him is without a doubt successful. It is truly a classic style of shooting and the most efficient use of bone structure and light use of muscle, thus better control of fine motor movement skills. The draw, anchor, aim and continuous motion has proven best for the two medal winners Roman and Avitia. Their fluid motion, great line and good positive approach is noticeable when shooting during the Olympics. Serrano looked as good when shooting, however, his timing changed under the pressure thus not able to make it to the medal round. Alveraz has a lot of talent and is so young that if he continues to shoot and train, he could be a medal contender in 4 years. Although his technique is not 100% like the first three I talked about, he does have an excellent technique. It is nice to see that they do not need to be clones with this coach. The unique thing I noticed was the coach’s approach with the archers. He was always smiling and appeared to be upbeat. This appeared to put the archer at ease and was even able to smile and laugh during the scoring periods. This is so important for an archer to be relaxed during this time of pressure.

The Korean coach with the Korean team. This new style of shooting, which is more of the older US approach that was used back in the 1960’s and 1970’s was a bit surprising to me. However, it has been proven to be successful. The relaxed shot execution and the extreme follow through is what coaches like Dick Tone advocates. This has been proven to be effective and successful. The interesting thing I noticed with the coach was his seriousness with the archers. Very seldom did I notice any joking smiling or relaxing. I attribute this to the culture of the archers and their coach. They were there to do a specific job and that is what they did. This is only speculation but I would have to say that it is interesting to note that it works. I am not sure it would work in the US unless you had that serious type archer.

The interesting note is that all three systems were effective and proven to be successful. As I have stated in other threads, I really like the system of the Mexican program. Their technique and style is excellent and one that is very classical and the most biomechanically efficient system I have seen.

I only commented on these three styles since all three where lead by a Korean coach. It shows that each had his own way and each proved to be fairly successful. The most impressive of all was the Mexican group due to their fantastic finish and their technique. It is hard to beat such simplicity when done right. I salute the Mexican Federation for their courage to develop this program.

Another note is that there appeared to be two approaches to shooting the elimination rounds in bow poundage. Many archers were over bowed by the amount of shaking they showed during their shooting. This was noted with men and women. I think this is due to making an effort to shoot as heavy poundage one can in order to shoot flatter trajectory. Since the round only requires 12 to 15 arrows at a time, they do not need to worry about getting worn out. However, the lack of 100% control might have been a factor during the early stages. You will note that most of the archers, who shot bows that were not too heavy, went on and shot in the medal matches. I figure this is something that only time will tell with this new type of round. I know it is not real new, but in real terms it is still new for the coaches and archers to figure out what is best for the round.
 

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If you also look at the Australians and their technique when he was the coach there it was very similar to the old Korean method.
Prior to the Sydney game, Simon Fairweather did most of his training by himeself at his local club. he did acknowledge, Coach Lee managed to increase resources available from the elite national level.

Dave and Tim were then Coach Lee's full time students.
 

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Also, Serrano grasps the string with his fingers in a very unique way. However, both are on the team and did very well. This is a sign that the coach must be a bit flexible.
Rick,

I've watched Serrano shoot a fair bit. Are you talking about his string hand, or Velez?

Gabe
 

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Rick,

...what can you say about the korean coach of the italians??

IIRC vittorio mentioned that he was more of a ceremonial or nominal coach only as the archers still had their own individual coaches...

..whatever it is the italians must be doing a lot of things right as they just won the gold in the men's team in london and have had many olympic medals in the past both team and individual...
 

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This is the reason that recreational archers will struggle to master this style of shooting. However, they can master about 75-80% of the method, which is quite similar to traditional style techniques. The remaining 20-25% should be considered once the archer reaches a specific area of expertise. However, I am not sure that Lee will allow an archer to be an RA or JDT if they do not commit 100% to his teaching style.
What I've said for some time now. Hopefully the "NTS or the highway" advocates will read this and take it to heart. There is a time and place for elite training programs. It is not in the Bowman or Cub - or possibly even the Cadet - levels of JOAD. Not in this country.

Here's why I say this (and many JOAD coaches already know this...) - Kids in the U.S. have SO many choices of popular sports that archery always takes a back seat. Individual sports like archery, tennis, golf, etc. will ALWAYS take a back seat in our society to team sports. Our kids are very social kids who want desperately to be part of a popular movement or group. Asking them to shoot archery when none or very few of their friends are doing it, and it's not seen as very "cool" or widely understood, and you can't go to college on an archery scholarship, and you can't support your family as an archer... well, those are all strikes against our sport in the minds of the kids we coach. So it takes a special young person to go ahead and forego the baseball practice or volleyball practice to go shoot archery. So already we have a tiny % of the youth population that we can reach with our sport.

When you add to that an intensive training schedule and terms like "biomechanically correct," "Lan2," etc., then it removes another big percentage of the youth who are willing to stay on board. Therefore, we MUST be sure to keep this sport fun and easy to learn for as long as possible. Then, when a child or young adult realizes they want to commit to the sport, set goals and achieve them, we can introduce new techniques and more instruction. But this must be on pace with the individual archer's tolerance for change and willingness to work for their goals.

The minute archery practice ceases to be fun, about 75-80% of all our young archers are going to head for the doors and go play ball with their friends. Because, let's face it, archery in it's current form can be just plain boring. Especially the practice and training. And kids today don't do "bored" well, or for very long.

John
 

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Rick is pointing out that there are many different "Korean" techniques, and some of them have been proven to be very succesfull in London.
Personally, I have never seen one "Korean" technique, in the past, but just several variations of the basic models developped worldwide in the years between 1975 and 1994 (approx.). Stance, draw cycle, anchor, release ... You can see many similarities and hundreds of variations around, and every x years some "new" technique comes out and claims to be better than others, just to show that is a variation or simply a copy of an already existing one.
The inner rotation of the front shoulder: already used by URSS and mainly Ukrainian shooters, was common in Korea at the end of the 80's too.
The preminent use of the lower drawing shoulder muscles for better stability: gets back to mid 70's in different countries
The thumb behind the neck : used by Ferrari in the 70's already
Open stance: originated in US, being Rick the most well known advocate of it
Line of drawing in front and out of the body: mainly Korean, early 90's. Foir the chronicles, D.E.Suk was shoooting himself this way before becoming a coach, and demonstrated it in Italy around 1990.
2 Fingers shooting: I was shooting 2 fingers a the end of the 70's already...OK, not a good example :angel:, so think to the entire US men team in Atlanta in 1996

Long time ago I have figured out what is the most efficient and repetitive technique to draw a bow, and I have not changed mind since then. Basically, is the technique that comes more natural and used by 90% of world archers, pprobbaly because is less energy demanding. The real secrets are in how to make it really repetitive, how to reproduce it on different archers and how to dominate it under the head to head stress. An I have NOT changed mind about it in the last 7 years, since THA has been published. I admit for a certain period of time i have had some doubts. But then I have analized the shootng techniques of almost all top level shooters, and allof them have been confirming my theories in part or in full.
The world of archery is now 90 percent conquered by "sighters", and "pushers" are dominating more and more (using THA terms).
Then, I can make a sighter and a pusher from any of the basic techniques I have seen in London, independently from the details of their draw cycle, as they were all much more similar each other that what an outside simple observation can tell, with one only single exception: OH H.J. !
I'm still studying his front shoulder "compound style" position, to sort out how this is working in a pushing technique (that he is clerly using), as considering the complexity of the movemnts needed to keep everything in line during the final release phase in a situation were vectors of forces in balance are pushing in very different directions then the line to the target. Several have tried in the past this kind of solution, none has been succesful with it. Up to now .
So, at present I can say that at least one single coach in Korea has now managed something really new that merits to be studied. For all others, nothing new undr sun, as usual IMHO.

P.S.:
I have seen several archers in London using very unefficient techniques to try to do something that others were doing in a much simpler way. But results in London have not been related at all to the complication of the drawing cycle nor to the pure level of poundage used, fo rthe majority of the medal winners.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you Vittorio for pointing out my "point". :smile: In the 1980's the US ran a battery of scientific tests and found that most results were so inconclusive that there was no one way, there were many and as long as the way was repetitive, it will give you similar results. One thing that did stand out was the mental aspect of the game, self esteem, positive reinforcement, high confidence level, relaxation, attitude were some of the most notable. These were very high ratings, which you would expect.

As for the Korean coach - Italian team, I chose not to use this example since Vittorio has already stated that Suk is not the archers' personal coach. However, it is wise to note that he has found a way to work in harmony with the team without interfering with the archers' personal coach. It does work.

As for Serrano and his release fingers or finger placement on the string, it is quite strange and yet effective. This is very uncommon for an elite shooter, however, he is proving my point by showing that if you repeat it often enough and exactly the same every time, it will work. I mentioned him and Alveraz because of their unique differences and yet they are still on the team. This is not what the goal is here in the US, but that can be another thread. As a matter of fact, the Italian way was the US way years ago....I will do it my way and don't get in my way!
 

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Sorry, I'm watching video of Oh in the gold medal match and I'm not seeing what is different than normal about his front shoulder. What is meant by 'compound style'?
 

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Mexican style was developed by the greatest mexican coach, Mr Jose Almanzor from Guadalajara. Almanzor was the very first coach of Serrano and Velez. Alejandra Valencias (Pan Am Champion) is coaching by Miguel Flores who was teached from Mr Almanzor as shooter and coach, and Valemcias style is an evolution of teaches from Almanzor. Its important to say that mexican team is not trained by Lee Wong, who focused only in a few archers, for example, Alvarez shoot in Baja California, the female team have their own personal coachs.
 

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it is admirable how the korean coaches of various national teams are able to work with the personal coaches....

....trying to imagine myself in their place, it would require great skills in diplomacy and also involve tremendous patience, discipline and focus in achieving common objectives...

easier said than done...
 

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it is admirable how the korean coaches of various national teams are able to work with the personal coaches....

....trying to imagine myself in their place, it would require great skills in diplomacy and also involve tremendous patience, discipline and focus in achieving common objectives...

easier said than done...
Very true! You have to check your ego at the door. Perhaps this is why great athletes very often don't become great coaches. Ego is what drives the athletes to excellence. Ego can be a very big barrier to extracting performance out of another.
 

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Thank you Vittorio for pointing out my "point". :smile: In the 1980's the US ran a battery of scientific tests and found that most results were so inconclusive that there was no one way, there were many and as long as the way was repetitive, it will give you similar results. One thing that did stand out was the mental aspect of the game, self esteem, positive reinforcement, high confidence level, relaxation, attitude were some of the most notable. These were very high ratings, which you would expect.

As for the Korean coach - Italian team, I chose not to use this example since Vittorio has already stated that Suk is not the archers' personal coach. However, it is wise to note that he has found a way to work in harmony with the team without interfering with the archers' personal coach. It does work.

As for Serrano and his release fingers or finger placement on the string, it is quite strange and yet effective. This is very uncommon for an elite shooter, however, he is proving my point by showing that if you repeat it often enough and exactly the same every time, it will work. I mentioned him and Alveraz because of their unique differences and yet they are still on the team. This is not what the goal is here in the US, but that can be another thread. As a matter of fact, the Italian way was the US way years ago....I will do it my way and don't get in my way!
I couldn't agree more!!!! :thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:
 

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He's shown success with his technique but I wonder about the depth of his coaching ability outside the form. Rick mentions the mental aspect of the game and it takes a special coach to note when their archery need them to get them to execute their game under stress. Some of the best archers get to that tipping point when they are trying to place the arrow in the center of the 10 instead of executing strong shots. The arrows soon begin to spray and the harder the archer tries the worse it gets. Do any of you know truly how Coach Lee does with this aspect of coaching? How well does he know, relate, and handle his athletes when they need it? Not when they want it but what they need when they need it. If this is too far off topic sorry...
 

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Along the same theme a comment from a nice study trying to connect how people shoot to the results obtained

"There is not a single muscle that was determinant for score or speed for all archers. Rather, different proximal muscles or muscle combinations determined speed or score for different archers. Muscle activity levels determined score for the archer with lower arrow speed while variation in muscle activity determined score for the archers with higher speed. The varied muscle activity by the archers in this study shows that the archers have an individual manner of influencing score and speed."

Ref: INFLUENCE OF MUSCLE ACTIVITY ON SHOOTING PERFORMANCE IN ARCHERY: PRELIMINARY FINDINGS
 

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Interesting post by Rick. Thinking about coaching archers I'll start with Kisik Lee, Rick has looked at the type of form he teaches today an says it has changed over time. What has not been mentioned is technology available today Kisik Lee is always looking for the edge to improve the archers he coaches so this would include things like force plate testing, 3d force plate testing, ECG testing, SCATT system test, high speed video running through dartfish software and a whole host of digital analysis of biomechanics. Findings from this research would result in changes to form coached. Look at the swimmers in the 2008 olympics some of the races all the athletes where on world record pace you don't get those gains with out studying biomechanics.

Then theres personality you could be the best coach in the world but if you do not get on with the archer its a waste of time Coach Suk seems to have this problem.

Then theres the coach of the Mexican squad has worked with his archers for some time I do not know much about the Mexican coaching system but when a country employs a Korean coach the first thing they do is get a system in place to teach good form so that the new archers coming up have fewer form issues to fix and scores are higher over time the system will bear fruit this has been done in other sports. but then again he may have got lucky and came across some very motivated and determined archers a former speed skater then theres miss Roman who has that look about her as the type of woman you would not want to have an argument with thats the type of personality that makes a tuff archer.You have to be stubbon to deal with the frustrations the sport causes.

Thats my take on it.
 

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Interesting post by Rick. Thinking about coaching archers I'll start with Kisik Lee, Rick has looked at the type of form he teaches today an says it has changed over time. What has not been mentioned is technology available today Kisik Lee is always looking for the edge to improve the archers he coaches so this would include things like force plate testing, 3d force plate testing, ECG testing, SCATT system test, high speed video running through dartfish software and a whole host of digital analysis of biomechanics. Findings from this research would result in changes to form coached. Look at the swimmers in the 2008 olympics some of the races all the athletes where on world record pace you don't get those gains with out studying biomechanics.
I would really like to see scientific reports/records of these tests that Coach Lee done, Beside the word "Biomechanic" so far, I just can not find any "BEST" publications reflecting them. I am not so far convinced that his method is superior to other methods scientifically or un-scientifically. So far, I can see the physique of those perform well under BEST controdict the meaning of "Biomechanics Efficient"

I have seen it done in Swimming and Cycling, Biomechanical methods are used to find individual solution for individual person. not one method for all.

It is not Biomechanics at all, by simple pointing at one bigger muscle and saying it is "Biomechanical Efficient".
 

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What has not been mentioned is technology available today Kisik Lee is always looking for the edge to improve the archers he coaches so this would include things like force plate testing, 3d force plate testing, ECG testing, SCATT system test, high speed video running through dartfish software and a whole host of digital analysis of biomechanics. Findings from this research would result in changes to form coached.
Are you assuming all of this is being done at the OTC? I agree it should be, however, I have no reason to believe it is.
 

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I would really like to see scientific reports/records of these tests that Coach Lee done, Beside the word "Biomechanic" so far, I just can not find any "BEST" publications reflecting them. I am not so far convinced that his method is superior to other methods scientifically or un-scientifically. So far, I can see the physique of those perform well under BEST controdict the meaning of "Biomechanics Efficient"

I have seen it done in Swimming and Cycling, Biomechanical methods are used to find individual solution for individual person. not one method for all.

It is not Biomechanics at all, by simple pointing at one bigger muscle and saying it is "Biomechanical Efficient".
Ah, the NTS bash fest continues I see.

We may never know what scientific studies any coach has read or used in their coaching, but apparently quite a few studies in archery do exist. This list is from FITA, "Sports Medicine and Science in Archery".


 

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Ah, the NTS bash fest continues I see.

We may never know what scientific studies any coach has read or used in their coaching, but apparently quite a few studies in archery do exist. This list is from FITA, "Sports Medicine and Science in Archery".


SP, quoting a **FITA** book's references does nothing to prove the validity of NTS. And most of those references are not specific to archery.
 

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SP, quoting a **FITA** book's references does nothing to prove the validity of NTS. And most of those references are not specific to archery.
No one has to prove the "validity" of NTS any more than these threads have managed to disprove it. Its a system, take or leave it. Some have had the dignity and class to tout their system and accomplishments without issuing divisive negatives about NTS. Others could learn from their example.

Regarding the FITA references, I counted 16 references that contain wording specific to archery. The rest are applicable to athletes in general. Archers are athletes. Throughout the discussion on coaching methods several have asked about scientific studies and there have been very few specific references to any published studies. Now you have at least sixteen more. You and others have asked for scientific proof for NTS. I think it safe to assume that any of the above studies applicable to any coaching system are also applicable to NTS.
 
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