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Socket Man
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To set up a good sight that has all three 1st 2nd 3rd axis it only takes 20 minutes from start to finish and you really don't need much stuff. You need a bubble level that is a nice short one so that you can fit it in tight places such as your bow string, on your bow string you have a peep and a d loop and string silencers and speed nocks so finding a section where you can put a level is tough unless you have a pretty short one. I think mine is 6 to 8 inches long.

1st and 2nd axis:

Actually they are both first and second axis, it took me years to figure this out that the archery community had grandfathered in 1st axis incorrectly. It is something that happened decades ago and it is so deeply rooted that it will probably never change. But the archery 1st and 2nd axis are both 2nd axis it is just a two step job. So, get your bow perfectly vertical based on the bow string left and right and forward and back. Once you have the bow string perfectly vertical in all directions then loosen the 1st axis bolts that hold the sight mechanism and rotate it and use the bubble level to get it perfectly vertical also. Now lock it down and you have the bow string vertical and you have the sight mechanism vertical so you are half way done. Now loosen the second axis bolts and rotate the scope until the bubble level in your scope is perfect and lock it down. At this point your bow is perfectly level at the bow string and the sight mechanism and the scope bubble so you now have your sight really sweet. This should only take 10 or so minutes.

3rd axis:

Now hang a plumb line and have it ready for you to come to full draw, the whole point behind 3rd axis is that when you aim down or up at extreme angles you bubble is going to lie to you and force you to cant your bow unless you get the bubble level perfectly square to the target. So good sights have the scope mounted like a "door hinge" so you can angle the scope towards you or away from you. You need one more thing, you need a 12 inch or so long rod. I prefer to steal a welding rod from my dads garage and I have used a bicycle scope but any small diameter steel rod will do the trick. Simply use some duck tape and attach the steel rod to your scope and do a good job of making it perfectly vertical to the scope bubble. I tape mine on the front of the scope because this way I can easily see it through my peep when I am at full draw. Now you are ready to aim at the plumb line, simply come to anchor aiming out level and once you have settled in aim down at the ground and line up the metal rod to the plumb line and more than likely your bubble will be not centered. Now let down and angle the scope either towards you or away from you to correct the bubble, repeat drawing the bow and checking until it is perfect when the rod is lined up to the plumb line.
 

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Socket Man
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Notice that when you are doing 3rd axis at no time do you use a secondary bubble level, a lot of people try to use a secondary bubble when doing 3rd axis and that means they are doing it incorrectly. The only bubble level you use when doing 3rd axis is the scope bubble, it is the one lying to you and we use the metal rod to do the job of a bubble level to keep the bow perfectly vertical. So if you are using some method where a secondary bubble is being used you are being tricked by someone who has no idea what they are doing.
 

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Socket Man
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The true first axis of a bow is the forward and rearward tilt of the scope, we all do this simple job when the bow is in the vice. I mean why in the crap would you want your scope to be tilted forward or backward, we want to look through the scope when it is perfectly square to the target.

In fact the true 1st axis is only half of the job, 3rd axis is the second half of the job that insures that when you are at full draw you are looking through a scope that is perfectly square to the target.
 

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Socket Man
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Now what in the world does the archery 1st and 2nd axis do, Like I mentioned they are the two steps to 2nd axis and they have a very important job.

If your sight mechanism on a single pin sight is not perfectly vertical then you are going to hit dead on at only one location that you sight you bow into and get it dead on. So when you shoot closer than that dead on distance you are going to miss on one side and if you shoot longer than that distance you will miss on the other side.

For example, when I was blinded by some pro shooters and other people here on archery talk that you can shoot equally accurate with a canted bow I found myself only sighting in my bow dead on at lets say 37 yards. I am primarily a 3d shooter and our average shots are in the upper 30's and we shoot from 20 to 50 yards. So I always scored the best when dialing in my windage at 37 ish.

But now that I have learned the truth that you can not shoot as accurate with a bow canted I have my bow perfectly vertical so when I dial in my windage I like to do it at 60 to 80 yards, I can't always do it at 80 because of the shooting range I am at but I can usually muster 60. When I spend some time and get my bow dead on perfect at the longer distances such as 70 when I walk up to 20 I am 100% of the time even more perfect. When you shoot with a natural cant this will not be the case.
 

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Socket Man
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Here is the concept that finally fixed my brain and forced me to eat crow on shooting with natural cant.


We had a discussion here on archery talk years ago and it was a good one many pages long and a good 4 or 5 days into it a random guy stepped in and explained it so clearly and it changed me forever.

His approach was a simple one, he defined the 4 points being used and he pointed out that guys that believed in natural cant only used 3 of them. Being a math teacher I instantly knew this was pure gold and I spend a good amount of time thinking and studying the concept and it totally proves that a vertical bow is the only setup that will guarantee accuracy up close and far away.

So, here are the 4 points.

1. Nock point

2. Arrow rest

3. Peep

4. Sight pin

These 4 points must all be on the same vertical plane and if any one of them is off of the vertical plane then you will not have good accuracy from short to long distance. The moment that you cant a bow I believe that one of these points is going to leave the vertical plane the arrow is traveling on and you will loose that short distance and long distance accuracy.
 

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Now what in the world does the archery 1st and 2nd axis do, Like I mentioned they are the two steps to 2nd axis and they have a very important job.

If your sight mechanism on a single pin sight is not perfectly vertical then you are going to hit dead on at only one location that you sight you bow into and get it dead on. So when you shoot closer than that dead on distance you are going to miss on one side and if you shoot longer than that distance you will miss on the other side.

For example, when I was blinded by some pro shooters and other people here on archery talk that you can shoot equally accurate with a canted bow I found myself only sighting in my bow dead on at lets say 37 yards. I am primarily a 3d shooter and our average shots are in the upper 30's and we shoot from 20 to 50 yards. So I always scored the best when dialing in my windage at 37 ish.

But now that I have learned the truth that you can not shoot as accurate with a bow canted I have my bow perfectly vertical so when I dial in my windage I like to do it at 60 to 80 yards, I can't always do it at 80 because of the shooting range I am at but I can usually muster 60. When I spend some time and get my bow dead on perfect at the longer distances such as 70 when I walk up to 20 I am 100% of the time even more perfect. When you shoot with a natural cant this will not be the case.
This is just not true. I don’t know what you were doing wrong, but you absolutely can shoot a bow dead on accurate from point blank to extremely long distance with a natural cant. I tested it myself this year. I’ve always set my bows up without a cant. This year one of my bows just wanted to cant so I let it and adjusted the sight for it. It shot dead on from 4-120 yards just like it should have.

Generally I’ll set them up without a cant, but I didn’t want to use a side rod with a lot of weight or sticking out much on this particular bow, and I didn’t want to risk a third axis shift on hills from an extended side rod. So, I decided to try out the whole shooting with a slight cant thing, and it worked perfectly.

Clearly something in your setup was wrong if you couldn’t hit behind the pin at various distances, but you’re blaming the wrong thing here.

D

D
 

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Socket Man
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I won a ton of tournaments back with natural cant and even stood on the podium nationally, it is a subtle thing. My natural cant was a a subtle and not drastic thing and I was able to stay on 12 rings out to 50 yards but I do remember always sighting in at 38 ish.

To me this is a fuzzy area because of the indian, a really solid shooter can hit really good and score well and hide the issue enough he or she may not even see it. A entry level shooter isn't good enough to group well enough to ever know the difference.

To me this is a area is one of the ones you can make your setup even more forgiving when done correctly, so yeah you can score awesome with a canted bow but you can score a little more awesome with a vertical one.
 

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Socket Man
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Same can be said about 3rd axis, you can shoot awesome with a bow that has 3rd axis set up incorrectly. But when you do a good job with 3rd axis you have one more area in your setup that is going to make your situation more forgiving to all the shots you see on a course.
 

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I won a ton of tournaments back with natural cant and even stood on the podium nationally, it is a subtle thing. My natural cant was a a subtle and not drastic thing and I was able to stay on 12 rings out to 50 yards but I do remember always sighting in at 38 ish.

To me this is a fuzzy area because of the indian, a really solid shooter can hit really good and score well and hide the issue enough he or she may not even see it. A entry level shooter isn't good enough to group well enough to ever know the difference.

To me this is a area is one of the ones you can make your setup even more forgiving when done correctly, so yeah you can score awesome with a canted bow but you can score a little more awesome with a vertical one.
Prove it

D
 

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Socket Man
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1. When you cant a bow, the bow string is no longer vertical. This means the peep is no longer on top of the nock, the peep will be leaning over to one side depending on being left or right handed.

2. So, when you cant a bow you have to change the 1st axis so the sight mechanism is vertical to the ground. This allows the sight to move up and down and the arrow rest goes up and down perfectly parallel right along with the sight pin. this is a good thing.

3. You have canted the bow, so to compensate you now do windage clicks to get the sight pin dead on with the arrow rest and the nocking point so the bow hits dead on at some distance such as 42 yards.

4. Problem is the Peep is not on top of the nocking point so your "line of sight" to sight in the bow is not on the vertical plane that the arrow is traveling. So yes you are dead on at that distance but are going to be off at other distances.

5. The amount of natural cant you use is going to dictate how much left and right issues you have, most people use a very small amount so the issue is small also.
 

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Socket Man
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These subject areas are tough, for example for years I shot a torque indicator on my riser that I could see through my peep so I always knew if I was perfect or slightly twisting my riser. I can not tell you how many times I have been on courses locally and nationally where we had a downhill shot and I will be the only guy who hits dead on left and right and the other 4 guys in my group shot 3 inches to the left or right. Every single time it happens they all freak out and have the normal discussions on how it must be their 3rd axis or their torque tune etc.

but

When I came to full draw on that shot and settled in the first time my bow was torqued like crazy, but my shooting form felt awesome. Basically the poor footing along with the down hill angle is forcing your body to be at full draw in a crappy way and it is lying to you. Yeah, your body is lying by feeling great. So, I let down and grit my teeth and when I pull my bow I come to anchor and twist the crap out of it and line up my torque indicator and take a smooth shot even though I feel horrible and I get to enjoy a solit 10 or 12 dead on.

All I know on this torque indicator subject area is that I am talking to dead ears, no matter how many times I have talked about it or demonstrated it people simply are not going to accept it. We have so many subject areas in archery such as natural cant and torque tuning where there are different approaches and methods and beliefs that I have learned to commit 100% to the things I feel like are fundamental approaches until I have someone convince me I need to eat some crow.
 

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Socket Man
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I am loving your request to prove it, I want to so bad. I wish I was the strongest shooter in the world and proved it that way, I simply am not that guy. Just sitting here thinking about how is a huge undertaking because there are so many variables. Here are the only things I really have to offer.

1. I group tune my arrows to the same hole accuracy with a shooting machine.

2. I shoot with a torque indicator most of the time so I am confident my bow is good to go.

3. I shoot with a vertical string and no cant.

4. I sight in at long distance for windage only 60 to 80 yards, I then walk straight up to 20 yards to confirm. I do not shoot at all distances and come up with a average based windage setting.

Omg, it sucks so bad being a above average amateur.
 

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Socket Man
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The more I sit here the math teacher in me is my proof, I almost have to step aside from being a archer.

Really dig deep and and allow yourself to think about the vertical bow string compared to the canted bow string, because once you dive in head first and ponder the effects of the peep sight being leaned over to the side so that your line of sight as you look through the peep is not on top of the nocking point is when you are going to be sitting there in your chair with a ton of doubt.

Then allow yourself to think about the geometry changes as your sight goes up and down with respect to the rest and the sight pin, then add that change to the fact that your peep is not on top of the nock point and you are going to have a really hard time justifying shooting with a natural cant.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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These subject areas are tough, for example for years I shot a torque indicator on my riser that I could see through my peep so I always knew if I was perfect or slightly twisting my riser. I can not tell you how many times I have been on courses locally and nationally where we had a downhill shot and I will be the only guy who hits dead on left and right and the other 4 guys in my group shot 3 inches to the left or right....
Your Torque Indicator concept is pure GENIUS. Seriously.

I fabricated one (torque indicator) and the lessons learned are tremendous.





It's just some bent paper clip wire, but I mounted the "torque indicator" to my sight horizontal bar, thru a hole,
and made the "torque indicator" micro-adjustable for horizontal and for vertical.





Use washers to adjust for left-right.
Rotate the bolt so the tip of the paper clip wire, lands just under your fiber optic pin in the scope lens.



Adjust how much you PUSH your release SIDEWAYS into your cheek until the tip of the torque indicator lines up with your sight pin.

Relax your bow hand, until the tip of the torque indicator lines up with your sight pin.

Tweak the swing of your right elbow (release elbow)...how much you pull your elbow behind your head,
to get the tip of the torque indicator to line up with your sight pin.

U THINK your form is good,
until you try a TORQUE indicator...you don't really KNOW if you are in line with things
or if you are pulling the nock of your arrow SIDEWAYS in relation to the sight pin.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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The more I sit here the math teacher in me is my proof, I almost have to step aside from being a archer.

Really dig deep and and allow yourself to think about the vertical bow string compared to the canted bow string, because once you dive in head first and ponder the effects of the peep sight being leaned over to the side so that your line of sight as you look through the peep is not on top of the nocking point is when you are going to be sitting there in your chair with a ton of doubt.

Then allow yourself to think about the geometry changes as your sight goes up and down with respect to the rest and the sight pin, then add that change to the fact that your peep is not on top of the nock point and you are going to have a really hard time justifying shooting with a natural cant.
Some shooters, have no choice but to shoot with a cant.
Hunter fella I worked with, has titanium plates and titanium screws in the bow side wrist. Surgically repaired.
Same fella has broken his release side wrist multiple times, no surgeries.

If you head position is consistent (same chin height, same sideways tilt on the neck),
if the anchor is consistent...peep and kisser button,
the peep location is FIXED, geostationary orbit.

The vertical travel of the target sight needs only be PLUMB with respect to gravity.
The sight pins for a pin sight only need to be PLUMB with respect to gravity.

This is basic ballistic trajectory. The tracks on a tank do not need to be level. The tracks on a tank can be on a sidehill.
The vertical swing on the main gun on a tank, just needs to swing UP or down, for azimuth, for the firing solution
the main gun on the tank just needs to swing plumb with gravity.



Gene Lueck has a wedge adapter under the sight mount.
When Gene (OldPro) holds his bow riser, the top of bow is tilted significantly to the right.
BUT, that custom wedge is matched to the amount of rotation Gene needs for his bow side wrist.
The vertical travel arm of the target sight is PLUMB to gravity. THIS is all that matters, for 1rst axis adjustment (swing angle for the vertical travel arm).

Since the vertical travel arm is plumb to gravity,
then, the sight bubble will also read CENTER, cuz the scope threaded rod is level (horizontal...matching the horizon).
 

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Socket Man
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I totally agree if a person has a physical issue where they have to shoot with some natural cant it is going to be a good thing for them to not fight trying to be vertical.


I also agree with a lot of what you said when you used Gene went through things, I believe this holds true for 3 of the 4 points I am talking about. The nock point and the arrow rest and the sight pin are all covered in those thoughts and make shooting with natural cant work pretty darn good. Good enough for shooters like Gillingham to win about every freaking tournament he enters lately. But those thoughts do not take in account the fact that you are leaning over the peep and now the line of sight from peep through the pin all the way to the target is at a angle from the arrow flight.
 

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Socket Man
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Been trying to find a simple way to express how my brain is seeing this issue. So if we have 2 deer hunting rifles that are sighted in dead on at lets say 150 yards is where you had the target set up when you sighted in both of them.

Rifle 1: Scope is mounted directly on top of the barrel just like any good setup parallel to the barrel

Rifle 2. Scope is mounted one inch off to the left of the barrel.

So, now you move up to 50 yards and then you go back to 250 yards. I believe that one of the rifles is going to have a good chance of being dead on left and right and the other rifle has zero chance of being dead on left to right.

Why? because the line of sight of the number 2 rifle is coming in at a angle and it is not looking straight down the bullet path so yeah, it can be sighted in for one distance but other distances are going to be off to one side.

To me this is what leaning the peep off to the side of the nocking point does, Yes the arrow is going to travel on its awesome flight path but the line of sight you are using is coming in at a angle.
 

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If the slider is not following the string, like in the photo above, sight is not moving just up and down. When you lower the sight it's also coming closer to the riser. That means shooting longer distance sight comes closer, line of sight staying the same, bow moves to the left meaning rest goes left. No way this is good. Otherwise we could all just forget 1st axis. Padgett makes the most sence here, four points need to be on the same vertical line.
 

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If you cant the bow, everything is still in the same plane as long as you set it up correctly. The peep, rest and sight all shift together with the bow. The nock (really the d loop) is the axis its all pivoting around.

You’re taking one setup where you couldn’t get it to hit behind the pin consistently and extrapolating that it’s because you were canting the bow. I’m not saying that there wasn’t a problem with your setup, just that you’ve come to the wrong conclusion about what the problem was. If you can ever prove that it’s impossible to set up a bow to hit behind the pin consistently with a cant, I’ll be all ears. And I’d also love to hear you explain how I have managed to deny the laws of math you’ve found and make it work anyway.

D
 

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Been trying to find a simple way to express how my brain is seeing this issue. So if we have 2 deer hunting rifles that are sighted in dead on at lets say 150 yards is where you had the target set up when you sighted in both of them.

Rifle 1: Scope is mounted directly on top of the barrel just like any good setup parallel to the barrel

Rifle 2. Scope is mounted one inch off to the left of the barrel.

So, now you move up to 50 yards and then you go back to 250 yards. I believe that one of the rifles is going to have a good chance of being dead on left and right and the other rifle has zero chance of being dead on left to right.

Why? because the line of sight of the number 2 rifle is coming in at a angle and it is not looking straight down the bullet path so yeah, it can be sighted in for one distance but other distances are going to be off to one side.

To me this is what leaning the peep off to the side of the nocking point does, Yes the arrow is going to travel on its awesome flight path but the line of sight you are using is coming in at a angle.
People in the know put levels on long range rifle scopes to prevent this very thing.
 
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