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People in the know put levels on long range rifle scopes to prevent this very thing.
Uhm, no. They put levels on their scopes on long range rigs to make sure they do exactly the same thing every time. Some long range shooters adjust that level to read true at their natural cant, particularly if they’ll ever shoot the rifle offhand…

D
 

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I was going to draw a picture up of a scope and rifle barrel. But Padgett said it pretty well.

If an arrow is 1” left of the vertical gravitational plain(bow canted) then it has to make its way to the right to get to the target.

How do I think many get by with this? Fletching. Bow out of true tune on purpose.
They throw a curve ball. The arrow comes out of their bow and is kicked over into the vertical plain containing their pin and peep. The arrow is corrected by the fletching and then flies a straight path.
 

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Socket Man
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Write or wrong I really enjoy these discussions, I am no different than anyone else and when I prepare to go hunt or compete I like to have 100% confidence in my setup. Over the years threads just like this one have helped me get more and more confident in how I do things which to me is awesome but I also look forward to someone opening my eyes to something new.

In this thread right now I am just not seeing anything conclusive coming from the guys who believe in natural cant other than using the justification that they have used it and pro shooters use it so it works. When I use that type of justification I can also fall in line and believe in it also and like I have said I competed with natural cant for years.

I just want to be really clear that I believe it is a very subtle thing and there is only a small amount to gain but to me every single small advantage in my setup helps to add up to a really good setup.

I have tried hard in my explanations to give simple geometric reasons why and I am basing my approach on the 4 points, I am not done yet and have another approach to show my side of the story and I think I will have it done today as long as my full class of iss students behave.
 

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Socket Man
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Just to throw this out there because to me this is something really important, if there is any question that natural cant could possible give you a slightly or major issue then why in the world would you do it!!!!

I say that because when shooting a fully decked out target bow with front and rear stabilizers I can set up my bow with any cant I want, I simply choose to do zero cant. Now I realize that if you have a physical issue from a accident or something so I am not talking about these people. I am talking about normal people with no physical issues. To me if you have a fully decked out target bow and you can not shoot with a vertical bow then you probably have some weird shooting form issue or issues that isn't allowing you to set up your bow vertical.

In fact, almost all of us come from hunting. We start out hunting with a bow that has zero stabilization but it had a sight and a quiver on the same side of the bow and that natural cant we may have shot with was out of a poorly balanced bow but the damage of a poor habit was set in stone. So yeah a guy has to break that habit and allow himself to become comfortable with a vertical no cant bow but that is just part of the game.

There is absolutely no discussion in these threads where a natural cant is better than a vertical bow setup when it comes to pure accuracy based on point of impact from long to short, the only reason natural cant is even a option is based on being comfy in your setup and that leading to better shooting because you are not fighting with the bow. And yes from that side of the argument they do believe that it is equally accurate with a vertical bow.
 

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Just to throw this out there because to me this is something really important, if there is any question that natural cant could possible give you a slightly or major issue then why in the world would you do it!!!!

I say that because when shooting a fully decked out target bow with front and rear stabilizers I can set up my bow with any cant I want, I simply choose to do zero cant. Now I realize that if you have a physical issue from a accident or something so I am not talking about these people. I am talking about normal people with no physical issues. To me if you have a fully decked out target bow and you can not shoot with a vertical bow then you probably have some weird shooting form issue or issues that isn't allowing you to set up your bow vertical.

In fact, almost all of us come from hunting. We start out hunting with a bow that has zero stabilization but it had a sight and a quiver on the same side of the bow and that natural cant we may have shot with was out of a poorly balanced bow but the damage of a poor habit was set in stone. So yeah a guy has to break that habit and allow himself to become comfortable with a vertical no cant bow but that is just part of the game.

There is absolutely no discussion in these threads where a natural cant is better than a vertical bow setup when it comes to pure accuracy based on point of impact from long to short, the only reason natural cant is even a option is based on being comfy in your setup and that leading to better shooting because you are not fighting with the bow. And yes from that side of the argument they do believe that it is equally accurate with a vertical bow.
I was very clear about the circumstances in which I set up with a cant. It wasn’t a full target rig. It was a hybrid rig on which I didn’t want a side bar kicked out wide. I’ve shot that same rig set up to be vertical. There was no difference in its accuracy in either orientation, and if you’d like to suggest that I can’t shoot well enough to tell the subtle difference you’re welcome to fly out to shoot with me and test that theory.

I haven’t yet done it with a full target rig because I haven’t had a reason or need to, but I wouldn’t hesitate if it seemed like my best option.

Shooters are different, if ones body and bow don’t come together well for a vertical bow that doesn’t mean they’re doing anything wrong. Gillingham has set up with a cant. Paige pierce has to run her stabilizer bias on the sight side of her bow. I could go on but you get the point.

The bow just repeats itself again and again. The shooter has to set up in the way that allows themselves to be as consistent as possible. You guys can pontificate or make up internet arguments all you want. Top pros and good amateurs have tested this and found that it works. If you couldn’t get it working, you did it wrong. The science of why it works is really straightforward. I’ve got better things to do than argue further with people on the internet. Anyone who cares to know can test this stuff with a modest time investment. It’s worth it, the only way you really know what works and doesn’t is to see it for yourself. If something doesn’t work like it’s supposed to, assume you made an error and work back through the process to learn what you did wrong.

D
 

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When you tilt the bow in the vice to 45 degrees,
hang a plumb bob. LONG length of dental floss, hanging from the ceiling. Stand 10 feet away from the plumb bob
and bow is 5 feet behind the plumb bob, so between you and the riser, you are 15 feet away.

Confirm that the left edge of the upper and lower limb LINE UP with the plumb bob.

Your 3rd axis is not correct, cuz edges of the limb were not truly plumb (vertical), when you tilted the bow riser to point a hard 45 degrees downhill.
He's good, I'm telling ya.
 

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Ok, I guess I will be the one that shifts this thread in another direction....
I have NEVER seen a scope that is canted that far as the op posted especially after setting all 3 axis. Now I'm not that familiar with Prime bows, however, in order for that scope configuration to work, that riser would have to REALLY flex at full draw in order for things to line up. I'm I missing something?
 

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Socket Man
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You really have to be careful with 3rd axis, when I am shooting with my Torque Indicator my 3rd axis setting is different than when I am shooting without one. why? Because when I shoot with a torque indicator I actually set it so that the bow string is coming perfectly straight off my cams so that my bow literally has no riser torque given to it by me. Now my riser does flex a little at full draw so the sight still needs a little 3rd axis adjustment. But when I am shooting without a torque indicator I do give the bow a little bit of shoot induced torque so I have to set my 3rd axis to my shooting form while shooting without the indicator. This will give me a slightly different setup but in the end my 3rd axis will be good to go.
 

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The riser and string are meaningless, ignore them. Set the sights vertical travel bar to be level, make the scope read level to that bar to get second axis perfect. Then, use a hamskea third axis level (or similar device) to get the third axis right at brace (this saves you a little effort). Then, finish the third axis at full draw. Check it on a good slope to confirm it. How the sight looks after this doesn’t matter. It likely won’t look right from the top if you look close (or it may look really off even if you don’t look close). That’s because of a list of things. What matters is that it hits behind the pin regardless of the slope.

Mine is the opposite of yours but pretty odd looking from above.

D
What are you using as a reference to get the vertical travel bar level?
 

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What are you using as a reference to get the vertical travel bar level?
A level…

If I’m working with the sight on the bow, I put the bow in the vise and adjust until level. If I’m working off the bow, I’ll use the brite site leveler to hold and level it. That’s about all the brite site is good for, it’s a waste of money. The level in mine isn’t true to the mounting body anymore either.

I use a hamskea level attached to the vertical travel bar, or a small bubble level that I’ve tested and know is true just held up to the vertical travel bar. The hamskea is easier but if I don’t have it handy I’ll use that small level.

D
 

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A level…

If I’m working with the sight on the bow, I put the bow in the vise and adjust until level. If I’m working off the bow, I’ll use the brite site leveler to hold and level it. That’s about all the brite site is good for, it’s a waste of money. The level in mine isn’t true to the mounting body anymore either.

I use a hamskea level attached to the vertical travel bar, or a small bubble level that I’ve tested and know is true just held up to the vertical travel bar. The hamskea is easier but if I don’t have it handy I’ll use that small level.

D
So, just 1 level attached to the vertical travel bar and adjusting the bow in a vice until that level is plumb?
 

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Yes, then you adjust the scope bubble to read level with it (2nd axis).

D
Ok, was trying to make sure I fully understood your process. In most cases, this would achieve the same results as "plumbing" the riser since some sights do not have a 1st axis adjustment and are machined true to the riser. Pretty much all the other bars with 1st axis I've done needed no adjustment or a very slight adjustment, like a 1/16 of a bubble. Probably something that wouldn't even be of notice to the average archer.
 

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Ok, was trying to make sure I fully understood your process. In most cases, this would achieve the same results as "plumbing" the riser since some sights do not have a 1st axis adjustment and are machined true to the riser. Pretty much all the other bars with 1st axis I've done needed no adjustment or a very slight adjustment, like a 1/16 of a bubble. Probably something that wouldn't even be of notice to the average archer.
Maybe, maybe not. Plumb the thing that matters and eliminate risk of something being off. There’s no point in basing your leveling off the wrong thing when you could use the right thing.

Little to none of what we’ve discussed in this thread would be noticed by average archers under the circumstances most shots are taken.

D
 

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I believe some of the confusion associated with site leveling is due to 1st axis and 2nd axis adjustments are BOTH made along the 2nd axis, but for different reasons. As above, if you can get only one of those two things right, be dang sure it's your 2nd axis that's perfect.
 

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Yeah, I think most on here are getting to the same point just in different way. The type of sight alone will dictate that. All this sight leveling stuff is really simple and tends to get over complicated.
 

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Uhm, no. They put levels on their scopes on long range rigs to make sure they do exactly the same thing every time. Some long range shooters adjust that level to read true at their natural cant, particularly if they’ll ever shoot the rifle offhand…

D
It's hard to knock the results of David Tubbs.........or Tim Gillingham. I don't mind seeing exceptions to the "rules". Not when it's obviously working. I've shot with a small amount of cant with a couple of different bows that seemed to want it that way. There were no flies on it, but I won't compare my shooting record with Gillingham, either.
 
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