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Good points here, like many questions hashed out online, the answer most often is "it depends". I see this discussed with rifle hunters and modern calibers too - similar in the fact that you have to ask yourself whats your comfort level with shot distance? size of your game? build/body size? etc.. My only disagreement is on your statement "Deer are not overly hardy animals.." I think they are incredibly hardy and very tough, and you need to do everything you can to maximize your energy/cutting potential when you decide to let an arrow fly.

Personally I prefer (reasonably) heavier arrows with a small fixed blade for under 30yd shots... Northern MN whitetails in the rut tend to have very long fur and heavy hides so penetration can be an issue.

 

Good points here, like many questions hashed out online, the answer most often is "it depends". I see this discussed with rifle hunters and modern calibers too - similar in the fact that you have to ask yourself whats your comfort level with shot distance? size of your game? build/body size? etc.. My only disagreement is on your statement "Deer are not overly hardy animals.." I think they are incredibly hardy and very tough, and you need to do everything you can to maximize your energy/cutting potential when you decide to let an arrow fly.

Personally I prefer (reasonably) heavier arrows with a small fixed blade for under 30yd shots... Northern MN whitetails in the rut tend to have very long fur and heavy hides so penetration can be an issue.

I should clarify my statement about them being hardy. So they are incredibly resiliant. I heard the other day they have to lose like 35% of their blood to be lethal. I was just meaning that penetrating a deer through the vitals generally isn't as hard as other animals in North America like bears, pigs, moose, elk. Things like that.

 

Shooting towards the shoulder is a bad idea. I'm disappointed that the THP was bamboozled into thinking RF was someone to listen to. The only good thing that happened was that he got them to try to tune their bows and stop using mechanicals due to bad arrow flight.

For whitetails, my suggestion to folks shooting a modern compound with decent draw length and weight is shoot a medium weight arrow (400 to 500 grains), tune it as good as you can, and then shoot a popular fixed blade head with more than 2 blades and make sure it is at least sharp enough to shave hair off your arm. Then, avoid heavy bone. I have no idea why center punching lungs became not good enough.

I feel like all this youtube content is like a semester long course on tick tack toe.

 

Shooting towards the shoulder is a dumb idea no matter what. I'm disappointed that the THP was bamboozled into thinking RF was someone to listen to. The only good thing that happened was that he got them to try to tune their bows and stop using mechanicals due to bad arrow flight.

For whitetails, my suggestion to folks shooting a modern compound with decent draw length and weight is shoot a medium weight arrow (400 to 500 grains), tune it as good as you can, and then shoot a popular fixed blade head with more than 2 blades and make sure it is at least sharp enough to shave hair off your arm. Then, avoid heavy bone. I have no idea why center punching lungs became not good enough.

I feel like all this youtube content is like a semester long course on tick tack toe.

A very interesting podcast that goes over lethality of arrows and the physiology of shot placement was one John Dudley did with Dr Peter Attia called "Talking Arrow Trauma". There's some great info in there.

If you poke a hole in both lungs or the diaphragm that deer is going to die, and usually die very quickly.

 

First off, i dont condone what im about to tell you. I know a guy that grinds and files the tip off of his rage heads. He claims they deflect off of bone instead of sticking in bone, therefore more penetration on iffy shot. He kills lotsa deer.

 

I think with a 55lb bow these days either will work fine. Most people blame the head for a bad shot. Me personally I've made bad shots with fixed and mechanical pulled the shot or deer stepped while squeezing the trigger. Some I recovered some not. Imo if you shoot up the leg an couple inches back youl have a dead deer with either head.

 

Damn this is definitely the hottest take I have read in... checks watch... minutes!

 

Ya - if you aim further back, you're gonna miss further back. In this case u should probably shoot a mech so that your gut shot is more likely to be recoverable.

I don’t think thp is aiming at scaps- they’re aiming at the heart. In this case, you’re more likely to hit bone with an errant shot, so a sturdy coc is gonna be your friend.

 

so a sturdy coc is gonna be your friend.

Coincidentally, I have those exact words tattooed right above my belly button

 

I should clarify my statement about them being hardy. So they are incredibly resiliant. I heard the other day they have to lose like 35% of their blood to be lethal. I was just meaning that penetrating a deer through the vitals generally isn't as hard as other animals in North America like bears, pigs, moose, elk. Things like that.

That's why liver hits are lethal, but take longer. Bleeding out is just one way to die. Taking out the heart so no blood is pumping is another way, and taking out the lungs so they can't breathe is another.

Ya - if you aim further back, you're gonna miss further back. In this case u should probably shoot a mech so that your gut shot is more likely to be recoverable.

I don’t think thp is aiming at scaps- they’re aiming at the heart. In this case, you’re more likely to hit bone with an errant shot, so a sturdy coc is gonna be your friend.

Is it easier to hit the heart or hit the lungs? There's a big size difference there. If you can't breathe, you're dead.

 

Which is the better deer cartridge, .270 or 30/06 ?.......this has been debated about a million times. And do you know how much real killing power difference there is between those two? Chuck O'Conner said when he did not have any thing else to write about for that months magazine article....he would just write that. And that was 50 years ago...

A lot of guys, I mean a lot of guys want a .300 magnum or better for deer, regular deer...

But on the other hand, now a .223 is completely fine, since so many people have rifles they want to use chambered in it

This stuff will never stop....It's too much fun debating about killing power, stopping power, penetration....do you have adequate penetration? Rifles, bows....and the "stopping power" of handguns...oh...and now we have to stop charging Grizzlies at 5 ft with a handgun....

 

You be quiet. We all know the 270 is the superior cartridge. And the 44 mag is the superior hand handgun to stop a charging griz. And mind that you do not have to actively practice with the hand gun. At 5 feet whos going to miss? 🙄 And for bow anything less than 80lbs, 375 fps, 600 grain arrow. Is a toy for children and should not be used for hunting.

To the OP. You do you. If it works, it works. If it fails, well you will change and find something that works.

And all your questions. You pick 5 hunters in the area they hunt. 💯 they all have different setups. Then you expand to one state, then just southern states, the US, world. You will see the answers differ just as many humans have a-holes.

And now I feel like a a-hole. Just saw you joined and seen the post count. Congrats you made 20 posts. Go buy/sell.

 

Shoot what you want to and like.
40 lbs and 400 grain arrows are getting it done every year, deer and elk, just ask some of the women and youth hunter's.
If you want to build a what if arrow, I would go 800 grains and 72 lbs and hope for the best.

 

Others can do what they want but I'm in the camp of pushing my limit as close to the shoulder as possible. Have a good example from last year. At the end of season I had two tags left to fill and bow was my only weapon I could use (landowner gratis tag and my over the counter bow tag). A buddy was with me just hanging out and first shooter doe came in 22yds settled the pin what I thought was just behind the shoulder and center punched her, she scrambled around and stopped in sight and we watched her walk away with the other deer till out of view. Sat tight and shortly after another group came in and another shooter, same thing 22yds and another center punch and the deer go up to the top of the rise and walked out of view. We were a little nervous on the first deer because as she walked away my buddy could see it was a little back so we gave everything at least an hour before going to look for blood. Second deer was 40yds away dead on the frozen river and the first we tracked blood for a little ways till backing out because it rounded the corner and crossed the frozen river. We gave the second deer 3hrs at least and by the time we found her she had not been expired for very long as it was pretty darn cold and she was still limber. First deer was a liver shot and the second was double lung. My take away was first deer either made a slight step forward or I pulled the shot (leaning more on I pulled the shot or peaked when released) and I planned for a little farther behind the shoulder, second deer I buried my pin really close to the shoulder both deer were Magnus Heads Stinger and Black Hornet I think arrow weight mid-upper 2/3 of 400gr, both pass through.
Find the setup and preferred shot placement brings you most confidence, practice for it (on 3D targets if that means close to shoulder like I do then aim there and not their "vitals"), go hit the hunting grounds. For me every other deer has been super close to shoulder and easily recovered some heart shots some not far off. If what the Hunting Public advocates for is so wrong then why is it working for them? My setup is a mix of what worked long before YouTube and being able to easily research and the different YouTuber's light vs heavy / fixed vs mechanical. I now have the ability to build my own arrows so I go the best happy medium I can get for speed flat trajectory and lethal penetration.

Sorry this got long

 

I should add that both deer were facing same direction head to my right side and if I miss target shooting I tend to favor missing to the right more than left. So in that case had the first deer been facing the other direction I would have been golden had the second deer be the same I still would have had room but it would have been cutting it close.

 

im shooting the heaviest arrow I can between 285-290 FPS. Big mechanical in the middle of the body.

if you shoot 30 in the guts and 30 in the shoulder your finding far less shoulder shot deer. Even if u have a fixed head in the shoulders.

 

KNOW THYSELF... Let me clarify...

THP are looking to take shots in the 10-30 yard range. So a heavy arrow set up with a good fixed blade makes sense..
Arrow drop is not something they need to think too much about.
-On the other end of the spectrum we have Tim Gillingham who shoots 315 fps, with a 410 Gr arrow and he kills everything.. He also hits animals where he aims..

I find myself in the middle.. 440-470 gr arrow. I like 280-290 FPS. I like a super high quality fixed blade. And I make sure my arrow is coming out of my bow perfectly.
Ill also take shots a little farther than some are comfortable with, but you cant argue with my success rate..

 

I have been wearing out youtube listening to both sides of the argument on heavy vs light arrows and fixed vs mechanical broadheads. Here is my take and I would love discussion. This is also focused toward the whitetail deer hunter. Most modern bow setups will not have a penetration problem with proper shot placement. Deer are not overly hardy animals, so outside of shooting one in the shoulder or spine, penetration generally won't be a problem. Fixed broadheads are going to give you a higher chance of killing if you do happen to hit bone. Anecdotally, it seems most people miss back if they miss, so you are more likely to hit guts than shoulder. However, in the case of The Hunting Public, a heavy arrow and fixed blade makes sense because they are intentionally aiming more forward at the shoulder and will have a higher likelihood of hitting bone. Others who aim behind the shoulders, more toward the lungs, seem to miss back more often and a mechanical broadhead with a larger cutting diameter likely makes more sense. My conclusion? What types of ranges and shots are you prepared to take? That will determine which works best for you. If you plan on taking longer shots, better not sacrifice too much speed with that heavy arrow. Planning on aiming at the shoulder? Better have a heavy arrow and a fixed blade. And as someone else on here has as their signature, if you plan your setup for plan B, perhaps you are more likely to make plan B occur.

Well you know how to pick a topic. Both setups will kill period. It’s all up to you and your preference. I’ve actually done both they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I used to be a speed demon with the biggest rage I could find. One pin to 45 yards and killed a lot of deer that way lost a few too. I’m now a 545gr arrow single bevel guy it comes with killed a lot of deer and lost 1 so far. Most people haven’t tried both ways and can only tell you why the way they don’t shoot is wrong and horrible. My experience is light/medium arrow weight with expandable is great till it’s not. Expandables will absolutely make a massive hole at least on 1 side 99% of the time depending on angle this can be a good thing or bad. There really is too many variables to say definitively what was the difference in outcomes. Done right with the animals cooperation you will be fine. Massive blood trail and typically don’t run too far unless you get 1 lung. As for strong heavy duty single bevels/3 blades even if the animals don’t cooperate you are getting a pass through regardless of where you hit. That being said I’ve found that the blood trail is not near as good. There are positives and negatives to both
My bow is quieter with heavy arrows if I shot a regular sight my pins would be farther apart negative. With expandable you mess up and miss forward the odds of losing that animal are infinitely higher that with a heavy fixed blade. you have to shoot what you have confidence in. I’m sure I’ll get lit up for this by people who take this out of context but I suggest you experiment on does. Here in the south we have an abundance and the wdfp has asked us to shoot extra so I’ve played with modifications to what I know works just to see the results. Haven’t lost any deer yet but sure had to track one a long way. My point is try a few methods and see what works for you and gives you confidence.

 

Congrats on your 20th post.

they are intentionally aiming more forward at the shoulder

No, they’re not aiming for the shoulder. They’re aiming for the heart/lungs.

Planning on aiming at the shoulder?

No one plans to aim at the shoulder on a live animal. You’re vastly misinterpreting information and babbling here.

 

Congrats on your 20th post.



No, they’re not aiming for the shoulder. They’re aiming for the heart/lungs.


No one plans to aim at the shoulder on a live animal. You’re vastly misinterpreting information and babbling here.

I didn’t mean to say they are aiming at the shoulder, I meant to say they are aiming farther forward toward the shoulder. Their own words are they follow the leg line up and aim tight to the shoulder trying to hit the heart. When you intentionally aim tighter to the shoulder, you are more likely to hit the shoulder. That’s all I’m saying.

 

I have been wearing out youtube listening to both sides of the argument on heavy vs light arrows and fixed vs mechanical broadheads. Here is my take and I would love discussion. This is also focused toward the whitetail deer hunter. Most modern bow setups will not have a penetration problem with proper shot placement. Deer are not overly hardy animals, so outside of shooting one in the shoulder or spine, penetration generally won't be a problem. Fixed broadheads are going to give you a higher chance of killing if you do happen to hit bone. Anecdotally, it seems most people miss back if they miss, so you are more likely to hit guts than shoulder. However, in the case of The Hunting Public, a heavy arrow and fixed blade makes sense because they are intentionally aiming more forward at the shoulder and will have a higher likelihood of hitting bone. Others who aim behind the shoulders, more toward the lungs, seem to miss back more often and a mechanical broadhead with a larger cutting diameter likely makes more sense. My conclusion? What types of ranges and shots are you prepared to take? That will determine which works best for you. If you plan on taking longer shots, better not sacrifice too much speed with that heavy arrow. Planning on aiming at the shoulder? Better have a heavy arrow and a fixed blade. And as someone else on here has as their signature, if you plan your setup for plan B, perhaps you are more likely to make plan B occur.

Some really great points and discussion. My personal take is there is a massive understanding of the anatomy of a deer. I think many people believe that the point straight up a deers leg is the shoulder, when in fact it is open. If you look at the skeletal structure of a deer the bones sweep out from of the leg and back around to the top just under the spine. I think many people that shoot behind the shoulder don't realize they are shooting the back part of the lungs/liver which can lead to longer track jobs. Even a double lung shot on the back portion of the lungs(which will surely be lethal) won't deflate the lungs instantly due to the lungs having multiple lobes. The deer will die, but might go 100+ yards. I think the point of shooting more forward is to ge the front lobes of the lungs, heart and arteries, which would lead to shorter track jobs or dying in sight. Just my .02, but I think you are spot on in that the heavy arrow for whitetails in most situations is a bit overkill. A sharp, and solid blade put in the right spot with today's modern equipment will due it's job. So many of the popular youtubers and TV personalities shoot whitetails that still have half the arrow sticking out as it runs away its crazy, but those animals get recovered.

 

There is No 2 Deer Shot at the same spot, same direction / angle so there is no means to confirm most anything. As to "heavy" arrow I have been shootig the Arrow recommended for my Set up (60 lbs, 30 inch arrow) from way back when Aluminum Arrows were the popular arrow and to this day I continue to shot that Same arrow. 2514 with a Fixed 125 2 blade Broadhead. I never aim for the :Shoulder / Bone I have also always waited for the better shot on any deer or I would Pass. Broadside or Slightly Quartering away. I want a High Percentage Kill Shot! I know some archers that take the shot even when a deer is walking and that is a low percentage kill shot. i also wait for the deer's head to be down eating from a plot or fallen apple. Maybe why I do not take many deer with my bow but I want a Quick Clean Kill Shot. So far the farthest deer has gone maybe 75 yards & the closest about 50. I watch what Direction the deer rans off in and then gives it 30 minutes. Never needed a "blood trail" so many think is needed plus the fact no 2 deer get hit the same. So you can't Compare apples to oranges and come up with why some deer go along ways and others pile up sooner. As for firearms deer hunting whether in my home state of Michigan, or hunting in Texas or Montana all but 1 deer Dropped where it was Standing the one went maybe 15 yards. When I watch hunting shows and they have their new great 450 Rifle they state I hit the deer well yet the deer always goes 75 to 100 yards.That to me is Not a Good Hit. Guess I must have better shooting skills with a Remington 3006 Rifle using a 165 Accu Tip Boatail Cartridge. Free hand 50% of my shots down on 1 knee or standing. I sight my bow in and my Rifle confirm I am ready and go and hunt. I stopped watching most Hunting Shows because I can't accept how they are to avid Hunters and think a deer running for some distance gives them the idea they made a great shot! I know some that are in a rush to make the shot and then need help trailing a Gut Shot Deer. But then again Broadside or Slighty Quartering Away is maybe why I can make the better shot Bow or Rifle! But then again some take a Head Shot! No Thanks.
Never needed to add weight or use a Heavy Arrow to take a deer, seems to be more Hype needing a A High FOC or Heavy Arrow to get the Job Done!
LFM

 

Look into podium archer on YouTube. Him and Tim Connor did some random tests on random things. Not saying it’s an end all be all and you really can’t know for sure on true penetration other than shooting into deer. They basically tested over 600 grains really doesn’t get a whole lot more of penetration than an 800 and so on and so forth. There’s a bell curve on penetration along with weight and speed. You’ll get so many different answers but if you’re shooting over 60 ppunds, you’ll get good penetration with a lot of stuff, fixed or mechanical. Women and youth bows exist because it’s possible. Guys with 80 pound setups with a super heavy arrow is going to kill them just like a #55 with a 400 grain arrow. Might have to be a little more precise but if you make a gut shot at either, you have the chance to not recover them

 

I like fixed and up the leg. I also visualize the exit. It has worked for me a long time.

 

This isn’t exactly on topic with the thread on which is better but as most believe fixed is better for bone and big mechanical better in the ribs I’d say that’s probably accurate. It’s good info. This is from a tracking dog. Pretty damn good information. Its changed the way I shoot animals. As you can see not many if any deer can hold an arrow through the middle of the body. If they were all large expendables my guess you wouldn’t see any need for the very few follow up shots that were needed. There’s zero need to hug that shoulder.

 

If you bust through any of a deers ribs with a hypodermic they die quickly. I dont hug the shoulder but im not mid deer at all. 3yrs ago i had a big 13pt at 15 yds quartering away at a scrape. My hypodermic went in at last rib and out the brisket area. I shoot 56lbs. But i do sharpen the hypodermic myself. That deer was 8.5 yr old taxidermist said, so he was no small boned 2yr old

 

I aim for the intersection between the lungs and heart. I've blown through a deer lengthwise and I'm okay with overkill. To each their own.

 

Deer are not overly hardy animals 😂😂🤣🤣

 

Yeah, that wasn’t the best wording. I mainly meant, that in terms of being penetrated by an arrow, they aren’t as tough as other large North American game animals

 

I want to know a tougher animal with a will to survive than a whitetail

 

It is mind boggling what they can live through.