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Discussion Starter #1
I have wondered for quite awhile what the benefit to ACC's are over regular carbon arrows. The ACC's that I have seen in action in local 3d tournaments are nowhere near as durable as a standard carbon. They seem to bend very easy. What is the benefit of having aluminum wrapped in carbon when the aluminum can bend just as easy as a standard aluminum arrow?The straightness tolerace, if I'm not mistaken is only .003. This can easily be had with just about any carbon arrow manufacturer. The weight can't be a factor because you can purchase carbons in just about any gr./in. combo you want. What is it about these arrows that makes them worth $120.00/dz? You can get .001 carbons with a 1gr. weight tolerance for $90.00.
 

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Shoot some and you will see the difference. When I started shooting targets about 7-8 years ago I shot ACC's. After a few years I switched to all carbon shafts. I went through them alot faster than I did my ACC's. I have since gone back to ACC's as I just feel that carbons don't compare to ACC as far as accuracy goes. So me the all carbon shafts just aren't as stable in flight. They don't group as well. I shot some great 3-D scores with all carbon shafts. But my target scores suffered. All of my best scores have come with ACC's (except for my best 3-D score). I think carbons are ok for 3-D but I would still shoot an ACC over the all carbon. There is no way I will go back to the all carbon for field though.
 

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My experience has shown A/C/C's to be far more durable than all-carbons.
Oh yeah, and the spine issue has merit too.

Sean
 

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You can get .001 carbons with a 1gr. weight tolerance for $90.00.
You can get what a manufacturer says is a .001 tolerance, but how are they measured ? I know of one maker that uses a two-inch span. Another rolls them on a table and looks for a visible wobble. That method might let shafts out that are as much as .020, and indeed I have measured many from that maker that typically range from .012 to .040 when they advertise .002.

I only know of one manufacturer that goes beyond the ASTM/ATA standard for shaft measurement (28 inch span). That company advertises a worst case measurement- generally every shaft they make is much better than specified. And that measurement is taken over the entire length of the arrow shaft minus an inch (so it is over 32 inches for a 33 inch shaft, for example.)

Arrow tolerances are easy to lie about. It is important to know how the measurement is made.

Spine is important too. Only one manufacturer 100% spine checks their arrows both statically and 360 degrees around the shaft. (Same company that goes beyond the ASTM straightness standard)

Other brands can vary in spine by an entire size, as I have personally measured.
 

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This is a little off topic, but. . .

Am I more or less correct in thinking that proper and consistent spine is:

1) most important for finger shooters, who have a maximum of lateral string movement;

2) next most important for compound release shooters with a short axle-to-axle bow (ATA), and thus have higher side force and lateral string travel than with longer ATA bows;

3) least important with shoot-through cables/torque free bows, like Martin Fury-X, where there is essentially no lateral string travel?

My thinking is that if the arrow must buckle (#1), then you want that buckle to be the same every time. But, if you have very little buckle (#3), it isn't very critical, and in fact you always want the stiffest arrow possible.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter #8
GT

Who are the companies you are talking about?
 

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I bet I know!!!!!
 

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I'd say spine consistancy is just as important for anyone regardless of equipment. You can and will torque ANY bow which will result in a sideways force to the arrow.

I used to believe the hype about weight and straightness tolerances being the do all end all measure of a arrow till I shot my first group with ACEs. Easton's advertising is as far as I can tell spot on. "The most consistant arrow" I personally believe spine consistancy out weighs a grain or two of weight difference. Dont know how spine ranks against straightness for importance.

Also I don't have a spine tester myself but I'd bet money Eastons ACCs and ACEs are more consistant spine wise than any other arrow. JMHO
 

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These guys know alot more of what they are talking about than me but even I can see a difference. I liked aluminum shafts just fine, except the speed thing, and then when I was hunting and stalking they where noisey. I also liked carbons but started wondering, like you, if maybe my shots could somewhow be better. I got some ACC's and I can't imagine why I would shoot another type of arrow. An uneducated opinion would just say, they just go to the same place more often.
 

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Dont know how spine ranks against straightness for importance.
I think there are only two reasons you want a straight arrow: aerodynamic effects, and consistent bending during launch.

In other words, you want consistent spine first and foremost. Arrow straightness only gives a rough estimate of how consistently the arrows from any given set will bend under axial loading (at launch).

I could be wrong, but I think an arrow has to be fairly crooked before you will see aerodynamic effects.

Scott
 

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I think spine and weight consistency are the most important considerations. Of course straightness is important as well. If you check what the top archers are doing, they spend a lot of time making sure that their arrows are properly spined, What good is this if the arrows have a 15% variation in spine within a dozen arrows. This is what I found from one of the top all carbon manufacturers. A dozen ACEs show less than 5% in a dozen and at least six of those will be within 2%.

It is very enlightening to take the time to measure the various attributes of arrow consistency, It certainly weeds out the bad apples.

The aluminum core does mean that they can be bent but they are not nearly as fragile as some would indicate, In fact a friend of mine has been throwing ACCs away after 3 to 4 years of use not because they are bent, but because the carbon has worn of the point end.


Targetnut
 

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Been hunting with them exclusively since 1996

Back in 1996, I bought a half dozen (6) of the Easton A/C/C 349's and still have all six in 2003! I have taken over a dozen deer, over fifty hogs, and they still shoot like the day that I bought them. I hunt with them exclusively and have for the last six Whitetail seasons including this season where I have already taken a Whitetail Doe and an Axis Buck - both were complete pass through shots - as always.

This should be a real "field test" and testament to their durablity. I have also "missed" several times - not "seeing" those branches in my shooting lane, etc...!!! After every hunt, I've taken them back to my Pro Shop and they are still straight - even after all of that deflecting in the brush, etc. I'll never use anything other than Easton A/C/C's until someone can prove to me that there is a better arrow out there.

My experience with them and my 2 cents!!!:)
 

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I do have another dozen

I do have another dozen that I shoot targets with, but the "original" six are only shot during Bowhunting season. It's cool and even ... nostalgic (I know - they're only six years old, but that word just sounds right to me!!!) to keep hunting with them year after year. I hope to get another six years out of them - or at least have one left!!! Seriously, when I do get down to one, I'll hang it on the wall of my home office as my "trophy arrow"!!
 

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For anyone still guessing ----- it is Easton


For those who dont know, GT was a product designer for Easton and was responsible for the X10 among other things. He has more technical material knowledge than any other single person I am aware of.
That should remove any questions!

Sean
 

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My guess is that GT is talking about the arrow company that shares his initials.;)
 

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I suppose it depends on which "one" every one is asking about. The good or the bad.

I was answering the good.

Sean
 
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