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Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone out there had success with getting an accurate chronograph reading and after putting in your bow, arrow, and setup info in AA, just plugging the speed in and printing the tape? How close was your tape when you checked it at 30, 40, 50 60, 70, and 80 yards? I have been fighting marks all summer. I have AA and OT2 and checked and rechecked my info and and still get tape marks that are not correct. Seems that if they are spot on out to 45 yards they are low at 65, 70, and 80. If the marks are on at 60-80 they are high at 15, 20, and 30. I have a very definite anchor point and am careful to center my scope in my peep and still get inconsistant marks. It's not just me either. My wife's marks are never good on the cluse targets and the long targets at the same time. We have been shooting in our 30 yard and 60 or 70 yard marks and using these to make the tapes. Very frustrating!!!! I have never had an 80 yard mark that did not hit at least 6" low if set on the mark. So..................has anyone had better success just entering the setup info and using an accurate Chrono speed to make their tape? Thanks for any info or tips. I'm ready to pull out one of the last three hairs I have left.:pukey:
Jbird
 

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I use TAP so it may work a little different, but I have had good results. However, the speed alone is not good enough. You still need the peep to sight distance and centerline of arrow to peep distance at full draw. These measurements are particularly important for your short distance measurements. I have found that when I enter accurate bow and arrow info into TAP, I get very accurate speed predictions.

I would suggest that since you have the most problems with your long distances that you use the two measurement method. I don't know what your software calls it, but I assume it can do it. For example, enter your sight setting for 20 yards and a second sight setting for a much longer distance like 70 or 80 yards. Clearly you know then that your new tape will be perfect at those two distances. I would be shocked if it were not very close to perfect on the distances in between. Now the short distances are a different story. Without good peep input dimensions, you will not get those. However, how many short readings do you really need? 3 or 4? Just mark those couple with a pen on the new tape, if you can't get the measurements needed for the software to predict them. Good luck.
 

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Jay, when we use the Hooter shooter to get a dead -nuts mark at 20 and 80 yards. the tape is perfect everytime. Just rememeber that garbage in gives you garbage out. I have had Sally tell me this is the 20 yard mark that I just shot for a tape mark. So then we go and make a tape for her and she is 1 yard off at 20 yards. We'll put the HS to work and indeed her 20 yard mark and gap at 80 are a full yard off from the HS 20-80 gap. It is very easy to shoot any thing you want at 20 and even 30 yards form of vision wise and be very accurate on the target. But that number will not hold up all the time accross the tape. Gravity fall will not lie not matter how the arrow is shot, but your starting points sure can. when you sight in a good 80-20 that you feel is spot on, where does your arrow hit at 20 yards? generally the 80 will always be a good mark.???? Ken
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ken

We have been using 30 and 60 because 60 or 65 is about as far as we can shoot here at the house and it is an hour drive to shoot 80. Another thing I have noticed using OT2 is that if we shoot in two marks (say 30 and 60) and hit calculate and then go to the marks section, the 30 or 60 will be different from our actual shot in mark. The program just changes one of the marks.
When we were using AA and we shot in two marks and hit calculate and went to the view marks section the 30 and 60 that we entered would be exactly the marks on the view marks. I have checked everything I know to check in OT2 and it still changes one of the marks. It may be a bug in the Beta version I am using. I think I will upgrade my AA to the latest version and see if I have better luck. But back to my original question.........has anyone had success putting the setup info in either program and then using an accurate chrono speed instead of two marks???? I particularly have a hard time with Suzi getting two marks that she thinks are dead nuts on. Very difficult to get her to spend enough time shooting both distances on the practice butts to get accurate marks. Hate to have to buy a hooter shooter and cart it an hour up the road where I can run arrows through it at 30 and 80.
Jay
 

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Jbird said:
We have been using 30 and 60 because 60 or 65 is about as far as we can shoot here at the house and it is an hour drive to shoot 80. Another thing I have noticed using OT2 is that if we shoot in two marks (say 30 and 60) and hit calculate and then go to the marks section, the 30 or 60 will be different from our actual shot in mark. The program just changes one of the marks.
When we were using AA and we shot in two marks and hit calculate and went to the view marks section the 30 and 60 that we entered would be exactly the marks on the view marks. I have checked everything I know to check in OT2 and it still changes one of the marks. It may be a bug in the Beta version I am using. I think I will upgrade my AA to the latest version and see if I have better luck. But back to my original question.........has anyone had success putting the setup info in either program and then using an accurate chrono speed instead of two marks???? I particularly have a hard time with Suzi getting two marks that she thinks are dead nuts on. Very difficult to get her to spend enough time shooting both distances on the practice butts to get accurate marks. Hate to have to buy a hooter shooter and cart it an hour up the road where I can run arrows through it at 30 and 80.
Jay
Jay:

I use multiple marks
and then the calibrate function.

Get the best marks you can get
for say 20, 30, 40 and 60 yards.

You can use up to 5 points for calibrating the curve.

Now, have the program calculate the arrow speed for you.
You will never get two chronographs to agree exactly.

Now, I have OT2 calculate the marks (Make Marks).

I can set the 20-yd mark = this scale setting
to calibrate the chart for the 20 yd scale setting.

Then, I compare the calculated chart sight settings
for the known 30, 40 and 60 yard marks I have from real world shooting.

The numbers for the 30, 40 and 60 marks will not match at first,
BECAUSE the program assumes your bow is shooting at the factory
IBO speed rating.

You go back to the Equipment Tab, "My Setup" page,
and adjust the IBO speed down.
Keep tweaking the IBO speed rating down or up
until the program matches your real world 30, 40 and 60 yard marks.

Once you do that,
then you chart scale marks
for every thing from 8 feet (huge parallax error)
all the way up to 100 yards will be dead accurate.

I suspect your bow
is not shooting exactly at the IBO speed rating.

You may need to cut say 10 or 12 fps off the IBO rating,
and that will adjust the scale marks on the chart
or your sight tapes. Just play with the IBO rating
and then everything will scale correctly.
 

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Jay,
One other problem.....how are you mounting the site tape to the site?

I found that if I don't "cover tape" the printed tape BEFORE cutting it out and mount the double stick BEFORE I cut it out, that I get a TERRIBLE result and mismatch on the tape itself...

I finally figured out that it was due to me STRETCHING THE PAPER because I used to start with the cover tape at the top of the printed tape and lay it down and then did the same thing with the double stick. Then, I would also start at the top after lining up say the 20 yard mark with the indicator pin on the site and lay the tape out moving down the tape...STRETCHING IT instead of putting it directly down onto the sitebar.

Some people, I hear have gone to photo paper to alleviate this problem...just be sure you COVER that tape with clear waterproof packing tape...to keep the marks from washing out, and also the paper from shrinking or stretching out on you.

Once I went to more solid paper AND covered the outside with good clear tape and the back side with double stick BEFORE cutting them out, and then setting the tape straight down on the bar AND checking to see the numbers and the setting on the tape itself matched...this problem went away and my marks "MATCHED UP" with the numbers when I re-checked things after mounting the tape.

But, I've gone back to the EASIER WAY that I've used for years...the "placard system" so that I don't mount a printed tape on the site bar....I use the scribed numbers on the site and a printout sized to the placard to match distances to the numbers on the scribed numbers on the site. This way, I don't worry about the printed tape being stretched or slipping out of position....

One other thing....are you counting clicks when you are sighting in...and then entering those into AA? As in 65.3 (for a ten click site) or 65.35 (for a twenty click?), if you aren't then that is inducing huge errors into the results.

field14:wink: :tongue:
 

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field14 said:
Jay,
One other problem.....how are you mounting the site tape to the site?

I found that if I don't "cover tape" the printed tape BEFORE cutting it out and mount the double stick BEFORE I cut it out, that I get a TERRIBLE result and mismatch on the tape itself...

I finally figured out that it was due to me STRETCHING THE PAPER because I used to start with the cover tape at the top of the printed tape and lay it down and then did the same thing with the double stick. Then, I would also start at the top after lining up say the 20 yard mark with the indicator pin on the site and lay the tape out moving down the tape...STRETCHING IT.

Once I went to more solid paper AND covered the outside with good clear tape and the back side with double stick BEFORE cutting them out...this problem went away and my marks "MATCHED UP" with the numbers when I re-checked things after mounting the tape.

But, I've gone back to the EASIER WAY that I've used for years...the "placard system" so that I don't mount a printed tape on the site bar....I use the scribed numbers on the site and a printout sized to the placard to match distances to the numbers on the scribed numbers on the site. This way, I don't worry about the printed tape being stretched or slipping out of position....

One other thing....are you counting clicks when you are sighting in...and then entering those into AA? As in 65.3 (for a ten click site) or 65.35 (for a twenty click?), if you aren't then that is inducing huge errors into the results.

field14:wink: :tongue:
I do the same.
I just print the chart.
 

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Jay,

There will be a new release out soon V234 (final version of your beta)...and shortly after that V235 (in beta, now) that will allow decimal velocity calculations...among other things.

As soon as I get a little more control of the website, I will be able to keep the versions more upto date. Right now I'm dependant on the designer to make link changes, etc.

If you need to force the tape to a specific gap between marks, you can use a feature on the Make Marks tab to do this...

Uncheck the "no 20 to ?? tape adjsutment" checkbox. This will unlock the input field just to the right. Change the upper "??" distance to the furthest you plan on shoothing...say 80 yards. Use the up/down control to do this. Accurately measure (or calculate) your actual "20 to 80" gap and enter that value in the edit field provided. Click the calculate "=" button to recalibrate the tape to the measurement specified.

If you don't have a dial micrometer you can use your sight's click system to determine the "actual" measurement between two sighted in marks on your scale. Just calculate the total number of clicks between each mark and multiply by the click value.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Tape

Tom,
Yea I learned the trick on sight tape stretching a little while back. What works for me is that I take the printed tape and put it inside the laminating sheets that stick together with no heat. I stick down one side, turn it over and place the sheet on the other side and press straight down all over the surface of the tape. I then cut it out with sharp scissors and put double sticky tape on the back side, trim to size and carefully place on the sight bar. No leakage and the tape is a stiff unit that is not easily compromised. But my problem is not with the sight tape itself as I use the numbers and only use the sight tape as a double check against my number setting. Setting the sight with the numbers and then a quick glance at the pointer location on the tape has saved my bacon a bunch of times and I rarely mis-set my sight. Oh and the photo paper is the way to go. Much clearer and very easy to see the fine lines. Since it is a little expensive I only use it when I know I have put together a dead nuts tape which has been a little hard to come by of late.

My problem is that the numbers aren't right and of course that also makes the sight tape off too.

Larry, I will try using the feature you listed above and see how it impacts on this problem. The first time I entered my 30 and 60 yard marks, hit calculate, and went to the mark chart I couldn't believe what I saw. If you only enter two marks and those marks frame the gap I can't see what is changing one of the marks. The two marks give you the speed and the speed along with the arrow specs give you the drop. With both ends of the range having specific values how can the program change one of the values on it's own?

Thanks,
Jay
 

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Discussion Starter #10
While we are on the Subject of Tapes

I have been shooting field archery for four years now and I have had some fairly good sight tapes in the past but I have never had a tape that was good from 11 yards to 65 yards that was not low at 70 and 80. Of course I have always used a 30 and 60 yard mark and let the programs calculate the rest of the marks. I am beginning to suspect that there is something different about the way your eye perceives the 80 yard target that is different with the scope being so low. And before you ask, I set my peep to be comfortable at 50 yards and always anchor with the valley between my first and second knuckle pressed to the edge of my jaw bone. I don't think it is the result of a changing anchor point. I wonder how many people make their tapes and then shoot in their 70 yard and 80 yard marks and ignore the tape for those distances. Maybe I am messing up by not using 30 and 80 yard marks but since my name isn't Dave Cousins I don't think it will be easy to shoot small enough groups at 80 to build a case for an 80 yard mark. On my best days I can occasionally shoot 3 out of 4 shots into the 80 Yard 5 ring but 8-10 inch groups would be the norm.

Jay
 

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Jay,

>>The first time I entered my 30 and 60 yard marks, hit calculate, and went to the mark chart I couldn't believe what I saw.

Can you send me your user record file? I'd like to take a look...


>>If you only enter two marks and those marks frame the gap I can't see what is changing one of the marks.

The program version you're using currently only calculates to the nearest fps. At longer distances this inablity to calculate to a finer level of accuracy might be a problem if your setup doesn't actually hit an exact "no decimal" fps velocity.

Other things that can impact tape accuracy is how exact your sight marks are. Not saying yours are off, but being off even just a click or two can cause a 1 fps fps deviation in the velocity output. Try playing with the velocity from sight marks on the Calibration tab. Change a mid-range mark by 1 or 2 clicks and check out the effect this has.

Let me know if you want to play with the "decimal" beta.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Larry

I woud like to try the new beta with decimals. Will it just upgrade my current beta or do I need to deinstall it and install the latest? Please email the file to me with instructions tonight. I have broadband so it won't take long for me to load it.

P.S How do I email you my user record for you to look at?

Thanks,
Jay
 

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Yes i enter the chrono speed only

i shoot my bow through a good chrono. i then enter my speed and all my arrow information into AA for my specific bow. i then sight my bow in at exactly 20 yards, shooting at a 5 spot. when im convinced that my 20 yard mark is exact. i then enter it into my AA and print off a set of marks.

i should say im using a Sureloc sight and knowing that its 24 turn 20 click is important. also you must have all the other information AA asks for. sight length, peep height, arrow length, arrow diameter, arrow weight, fletch length and arrow speed.

what i get is marks that are dead nuts on out to 80 yards +.. its so easy and simple . no more struggling with getting 3 or 4 exact marks. when i try to get exact marks and then use it to find my speed, my AA gives me some speed number thats not even close to the actual chrono speed. i have just found this other way to be really easy and simple to use for me. i have used this way to set marks for 3 years. all marks have been dead nuts and checked with a 300 ft tape not a rangefinder.

Shoot Strong
Tony
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks Tony

You are the first person to respond to my original question. One of the couples we shoot with just did this for her tape. She is a good shooter but would rather eat a dead rat than have to shoot marks in (seems common to the gender). Her tape seems to have come out very close. Her husband said he had her shoot it thru the chrono and shot in a 30 yard mark. Of course she uses the tape and not the numbers but I guess you could still generate the numbers easily enough.
Jay
 

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I use AA and Chrono speed to get the marks. Accurate up 90+ yards from what I've seen. I generally don't shoot past 60 yards very often, but when I have it has been bang on.
 

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I go through a similar sequence that Tony follows using the TAP program and have had very good results.
Good Luck Jbird, sounds like your getting closer to getting it figured out!
 
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