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eyes and arrows
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys, need a little help with draw length advice. I have been shooting competitively for quite a while. My target bows have always been set at 29.5 inches. I have my katera xl at 30 because I use it for 3d and hunting and get greedy about the speed. That said, for some reason i feel like i hold that bow MUCH mUCH steadier than my other bows. I have always said that it was the most accurate bow i had ever shot....but why?

Today after shooting my new vantage elite plus with 29.5 inch cams for a while, i fealt like I was not holding all that steady compared to the past. I have been shooting 299-300 vegas with this set up, but i have been shooting very low x counts. I tried changing my stabilizer weights from very light to very heavy....weight way forward, weight way back.....it always feels the same.

It feels like i have a larg float that i cannot slow/stop. I know some float is normal and i want that, but this feel like a big float. I grabbed my katera and put my taget scope on it for a fair compartison and that thing seems to hold dead steady. The specs on the two are very very similar and the z3 feel a lot like the spiral, so i feel like it is likely the DL??

I have taken pictures and analyzed where my nock sits compared to my face/eye. Both look the exact same, the difference is that my bow arm feels "squished" at 29.5 and i feel like to straighten my arm where i like i have to lift my bow arm higher than i would like.

I have read some articles (by GRIV maybe) in the past describing the difference between the float of a little long vs short DL, but cannot find it. Any help or guidance would be great. I would just add half an inch, but i have to get a new cam and redo everything.

please help

Joe
 

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Are the DLs actual measured DLs? If not that could be part of it. Measure them on a drawboard and confirm. Then try setting them all at the same length as the bow you shoot better.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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Hello Joe:

You have an EXCELLENT memory.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=239599&referrerid=22477


This is the thread you are looking for.

Jus cuz ONE bow works for you at 30-inches,
the
NEXT bow may or may not work for you at 30-inches...

EVEN if the draw board says both bows are the same measured draw length.

It has to do with the grip angle, and bow balance. Spot Hogg wrote about this,
in their articles/newsletter section.

The general rule of thumb,
is that if you have a twitchy, tight pin/scope dot pattern,
then the draw length is a skosh short,
and you MIGHT need to untwist the bowstring several half twists.

If you have a slow, large, wavy pin/scope dot pattern,
then the draw length is a SKOSH LONG,
and you MIGHT need to twist the bowstring several twists.

A HALF INCH adjustment is HUGE.


Now,
if you have a hybrid cam system,
then....
you can also tweak the buss cable (extra half twists will shorten ATA and slightly lengthen the bow DL setting).


GRIV's article is excellent. Truly a classic.


Bottom line.
As field14 would say....

assume nothing.
measure everything.

experiment with bowstring and/or cable twists,
to get it just right for YOU.
 

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d.l.

I recently switched from a triumph to a v.e. plus. I had the same experience as you. I have shot the triumph @ 29" measured on a draw board, from the throat of the grip to the back of the string at full draw. Held well. Had to open the v.e.plus up almost 3/8 of an inch to hold well. I thought I had a magic number that worked for me. Im glad I read the above comments.
 

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Mass weight to holding weight will also affect the float. Knowing that the Katera XL starts out lighter than the VE+ and not knowing if there is any difference in the stabs and weight, or what the holding weights are for each bow, and based on your description, it could be a combination of both. Don't forget that the change in bow geometry and possible differnet loop lengths will cause some funky things too.
 

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eyes and arrows
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Discussion Starter #6
thanks for the help guys. I am going to measure my dl on both bows....then retune my bow adding a few twists to the buss and lengthen the string a bit just to see.

When i look at it again..... here is what is happening to my hold. When i have very little weight on the bars, it tends to sit very very still but jump out of the 10 very quickly. much like is described when having a short dl. When i add all the weigh i have, about 8 more ounces, i get the slow float i am talking about above. that said, the float only goes up and down. I am wondering if i am compensating for a short DL with lots of weight. IDK

I will post up some pics that N and B normally uses and we will see what you all come up with

thanks so much guys

Joe

PS how many twists can i take out of a stock string without hurting things?
 

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(aka lug nut)
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thanks for the help guys. I am going to measure my dl on both bows....then retune my bow adding a few twists to the buss and lengthen the string a bit just to see.

When i look at it again..... here is what is happening to my hold. When i have very little weight on the bars, it tends to sit very very still but jump out of the 10 very quickly. much like is described when having a short dl. When i add all the weigh i have, about 8 more ounces, i get the slow float i am talking about above. that said, the float only goes up and down. I am wondering if i am compensating for a short DL with lots of weight. IDK

I will post up some pics that N and B normally uses and we will see what you all come up with

thanks so much guys

Joe

PS how many twists can i take out of a stock string without hurting things?
Hello Joe.

The total mass weight of the shooting system
should be a particular ratio of the holding weight.

What is your holding weight at full draw?
You can get a system weight, by stepping on the bathroom scale without the bow system,
and with the bow system.

What is your bow system weight?
(all the stabilizers, the sight, quick disconnects, offset bar, etc).
 

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(aka lug nut)
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thanks for the help guys. I am going to measure my dl on both bows....then retune my bow adding a few twists to the buss and lengthen the string a bit just to see.

When i look at it again..... here is what is happening to my hold. When i have very little weight on the bars, it tends to sit very very still but jump out of the 10 very quickly. much like is described when having a short dl. When i add all the weigh i have, about 8 more ounces, i get the slow float i am talking about above. that said, the float only goes up and down. I am wondering if i am compensating for a short DL with lots of weight. IDK

I will post up some pics that N and B normally uses and we will see what you all come up with

thanks so much guys

Joe

PS how many twists can i take out of a stock string without hurting things?
General rule of thumb,
you can extend or shrink the DL setting by 1/4-inch
with bowstring twists alone.
 

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eyes and arrows
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Discussion Starter #9
holding 27 pounds (60 lb draw and 65% let off) and mass weight is 8.9 pounds

Thanks

Joe
 

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(aka lug nut)
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holding 27 pounds (60 lb draw and 65% let off) and mass weight is 8.9 pounds

Thanks

Joe
Hello Joe:

60 lbs of draw weight, and 21 lbs of holding weight would be 65% letoff.

60 lbs of draw weight, and 27 lbs of holding weight is 55% letoff.

You are running spiral cams or cam.5?


Anyways,
back to mass weight,
versus weights on the end of the stabilizer (front rod)
versus weights on the end of the offset / single side rod.


When shooting a large caliber bullet, you want the gun frame/rifle frame to weigh enough,
to handle the recoil.

So,
holding 27 lbs is a LOT of holding weight.

So, a heavier bow (more mass weight...weight added very close to the riser) will help balance out
the recoil reaction, AFTER you release the arrow.

Try adding weight close to the riser,
and not just adding weight to the end of the stabilizer(s).

Simple threaded rod, and some large fender washers will work.
Split shaft collar (double wide) will also work...just size the opening on the shaft collar to match the outside diameter of your front stabilizer.


I hold about 22 lbs and like my bow system to weight 8-10 lbs.

Since you are holding 27 lbs,
try increasing the mass weight of your bow system,
by adding weight close to the riser,
so this will not change
your stabilization system FOC.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
what do you think....i am leaning back a bit i guess
 

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(aka lug nut)
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what do you think....i am leaning back a bit i guess
blue shirt photo,
you are leaning your head sideways into the bowstring.

Other picture,
I don't see as much sideways head tilt into the bowstring.

Shoes (especially the heel height)
will affect your shot stability (ideal is 70% on the balls of the feet..so, a little heel height can help or hurt you)
(depends if you are flat foot or high arch shooter).

When working with shooters in person,
I will use cardboard shims
and shim both feet/heels
1 extra thickness at a time and see what happens
or
I will shim just ONE SHOE/HEEL with cardboard shims
until I get the shooter narrowing up their left-right misses.

Lately,
I have been experimenting with forward hip rotation..in your case, the left hip.

I would try and add say 2 full twists to the bowstring,
so the bowstring is slightly shorter.

This should make your release fire just a skosh faster/easier/less effort.

Also pay attention to the left hip socket
and make ABSOUTELY sure that the left hip socket
is directly above the left ankle.

I find that when I get tired,
MY left hip socket will rotate counter-clockwise
and this throws my upper body alignment out of whack.

When MY left hip socket is not directly above the left ankle,
I hold less steady,
and the width of my groups opens up (horizontal miss).
 

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Discussion Starter #14
thanks a lot, i will work with my hips. I am going to try and add a couple twists and see what it does, if that wont work, i will try and take a couple out. i think at this point it is in my head.

joe
 

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Discussion Starter #15
What does head leaningforward mean? What do I do to fix that? Overall, does form look ok?
 
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