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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got my Allegiance back from the shop about two weeks ago. I took it in b/c I had the top limb crack on me. When I took it in, the tech said that the cams were ever so slightly out of alignment..... I had noticed this (had been like that from day 1), but the bow shot great, so I didn't sweat it. One of the timing lobes was about 1/8" past the limbs and the other was 1/16" past the limbs.... I understand that they are both supposed to be about 1/16" past the limbs. I had paper tuned this bow and it was shooting bullet holes at several different distances with my Beman Black Max 400's with 100 gr field points.

Anywhoo.... got it back and the tech had both cams set up to spec (1/16" past the limbs). I set up everything else to my prior measurements and started shooting. I didn't worry about how it shot too much b/c I knew I had to settle in the string. Anyway, I noticed that out past 30 or 35 yards, my slick trick were hitting 4"-6" lower than my field points... this was odd. I also noticed some "wigglyness" to the broadhead flight. Not poirposing or fishtailing.... much less noticable than that.

I set up a paper tuning stand and started shooting.... I'm getting nock high tears no matter where I set the nock point. I've also moved the rest up and down to see if I can get it squared away... no luck. My tears are about 1" high. The left/right is fine, so my centershot is OK.

I'm shooting blazer vanes and a whisker biscuit QS droptine. I'm shooting a string loop (no button) and have a fletcher tru peep super hunter on the string. Also using an STS. The only thing different about the current set-up from the old setup is that I used to have a button at the nocking point, now it's gone.

Last night I decided it was time to hit the "reset" button, and I got the rest and loop level with the burger/burden (however you say it) holes and the arrow is at a perfect 90 deg. angle from the string. See my sig for drawlength... etc. Do you think I'm underspined with the 400's?? It wasn't before....

HELP!

Thanks,

-ZA206 (aka Patrick Stewart)
 

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The first thing I will tell you and your bow shop tech, is both cams aren't supposed to be timed the same. The proper way to set up is to get the string lobes on both cams 1/16 inch from the limb face. Then put 2 additional twists in the cable going to the top cam. When this is done the bow will be timed correctly. If you have a fallawy rest you will have to add 1 additinal twist to the top cam and remove 1 twist from the cable going to the bottom cam. Also if you have a fallaway it must be timed to come up fully 1/2 inch before fulldraw. Not sooner. You also need to tie into the down cable 6 inches below the launcher arm. Then all will be well and you will have very level nock travel. These bows are very sensitive to any load you add to the cables. If you have a fallaway and haven't done these things, you now have vertical nock travel issues.
Dave Nowlin
 

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dave ??

When you say add two twists in the top cable Is the top cable the one that gos to the outside of the top cam and how dos make cam timing look ?? I am using a mze what should cam timing look like ??
 

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One of teh guys at my club had this, and he added a turn to his bottom tiller and fixed it. However I get bullet holes no matter what my tiller is. Worth a try though.
 

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are you shoting the same arrow each time?? if so try switching the spine in that arrow may be messed up... ie may have been hit by another arrow rusulting in weekining the arrows spine????

just a tought
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Not using the same arrow.

I have 3 different fletched Black Max and one bare shaft Black Max that I was using. I'd shoot them all at the same piece of paper (different spots) to quadruple my results (making sure it wasn't a grip/technique flaw on one particular shot). NO DICE.... all shots with all arrows are the same (the bare shaft was getting wild tears past 10 ft. :eek: )

I'm not shooting a drop away... I'm shooting a Whisker Biscuit! Is there a different setup for this? I have a bowmaster porta press, so I can do all my own work (thank God). I'll print this thread out before I go home today and I'll work on the bow this weekend....

KEEP UP THE HELPFUL SUGGESTIONS!

-ZA206
 

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If you'll use the Bowmaster and do the things I have already suggested, your problems will be solved.
Dave Nowlin
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ok

Didn't know if your previous post only applied to drop aways. I'll do that this weekend. One more thing for clarification. When you say add two twists... is that two, complete 360 degree twists in the direction of the twist (shortening the cable). I'm assuming thats what you meant.
Just want to make sure I'm 100% sure we are talking about the same thing.

I can't remember how it was set-up (cam wise) originally, but what effect will this have on the lobe protrusion from the top of the limbs? Will one stick out further than the other after the two twists?

Thanks alot for your help! :thumbs_up

-ZA206

Dave Nowlin said:
If you'll use the Bowmaster and do the things I have already suggested, your problems will be solved.
Dave Nowlin
 

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Definitely the 2 cams are not timed exactly the same. The purpose of the 2 twists in the cable to the top cam is to slightly ****** it. If you time the both the same you won't have 80% letoff. Yes I do mean 2 full twists of the cable. In fact if you find the valley too short for your liking you can take 2 additional twists, but then your timing will not be optimal. Your previous description in the first post where you tell the position of your string lobes tells me your bow is not timed correctly. The edge of the top lobe will be barely under the limb, when timed correctly. When you get all this done you should set up nock level, not high and be able to shoot bullet holes.
Dave Nowlin
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Awesome...

I'm thinking this may be the issue.... speaking of the reduced letoff... I have it set to 80%. I loved the way it felt before I took it in... I could completely relax and the bow would not move.... NOW, it's VERY jumpy, I had two or three "unexpected" roll-overs that scared the crap outta me while trying to paper tune the past couple of days. It definately changed the let-off/valley.

I'm definately going to put two full twists into the top cam (that the string in the middle track on the top cam, right?).

Thanks a million for your help.

-ZA206
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
One more clarification...

So the bottom lobe will be 1/16" above the bottom limb and the top cam lobe will be even or slightly BELOW the top edge of the top limb after I put the two twists in.

Just want to make sure I'm 100% clear on this. (as I will not have access to AT over the weekend)

Thanks.

-ZA206

Dave Nowlin said:
Definitely the 2 cams are not timed exactly the same. The purpose of the 2 twists in the cable to the top cam is to slightly ****** it. If you time the both the same you won't have 80% letoff. Yes I do mean 2 full twists of the cable. In fact if you find the valley too short for your liking you can take 2 additional twists, but then your timing will not be optimal. Your previous description in the first post where you tell the position of your string lobes tells me your bow is not timed correctly. The edge of the top lobe will be barely under the limb, when timed correctly. When you get all this done you should set up nock level, not high and be able to shoot bullet holes.
Dave Nowlin
 

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Yep! I knew if I explained it enough times you would finally pay attention. The reason you are having problems now is you are actually experiencing 65% or less letoff. The knucklehead who set up your bow took away the valley. When you do exactly as I described, heaven will return. :thumbs_up
Dave Nowlin
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The guy that set up the bow was pretty "good"...... very professional...

Is the slight cam/lobe tweaking info you gave me published by Bowtech, or do they say "keep them both at 1/16""... and AT-ers have figured out otherwise? :confused:

If this works, I'll let him know what the scoop is.

Thanks again for your help.

-ZA206

Dave Nowlin said:
Yep! I knew if I explained it enough times you would finally pay attention. The reason you are having problems now is you are actually experiencing 65% or less letoff. The knucklehead who set up your bow took away the valley. When you do exactly as I described, heaven will return. :thumbs_up
Dave Nowlin
 

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Dave, are you a lefty, because I had to take twists out of the top cam to get it under the limb face. Based on your last post I believe the middle cable going to the top cam is the one that you want to add twists too. However I had to take twists out to get it to move closer to the limb face.
 

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I "timed" my Allegiance exactly as Dave Nowlin describes. I did this some time ago. Once I did, bulletholes and broadheads hitting with fieldtips.

He knows what he's doing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Did it.... BUT...

Well.... I guess we weren't all born stupid... but it just happens over time. :confused:

I actually had to put SIX twists in the top cable and FOUR in the bottom cable to get the cam lobes into the position that Dave reccomended. Top lobe maybe 1/64" below the surface of the top limb, bottom lobe 1/16" above the top surface of the bottom limb.

Did it work.... I DON'T KNOW! Why you ask???


I'm an IDIOT and accidentally dry-fired my bow shortly after making the changes. :cry: IDIOT! IDIOT!!!! Dammit!!!!!!!!!!! It' wasn't a "full" dryfire, maybe about 70-80% dryfire.... still was enough to completely waste the string and have the string and cables jump off the cams, cut the hell outta of my wrist, lose one of the c-clips holding the top shaft into place and destroying the spacer/bushing on the top cam. :mad:

I also figured out the hard way that a bowmaster porta press will not allow you to fully compress or de-compress a bow. It doesn't have enough travel... DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Going to the shop today to have it checked out.

I almost cried on Sunday when I did it....

-ZA206
 

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I don't understand why you say a Bowmaster won't compress a bow. I can change strings and cables with mine on my Black Knight, my Allegiance or my Justice. I hope you didn't do any damage to the limbs. What kind of release do you use? How did you manage the dry fire? In the future, never, did I say never, never draw a bow without an arrow on the string. That way you can't dry fire it. I can only say I am sorry for your accident and hope all works out well. :sad:
Dave Nowlin
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Bowmaster...

Bowmaster won't allow you to FULLY uncompress a bow. For instance, you can't change the limbs out on a bow with a Bowmaster. Changing stings, yes, removing limbs, no. It doesn't have enough travel to go from full compression to full decompression of the limbs. All you have is the little
5" screw. I'd need an 8" or more screw for that.... or a regular bowpress.
Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I just noticed this issue this weekend (I was going to inspect the limbs and pockets).

Anyway... the dryfire.... I wasn't using a release. I drew it back by hand (bare fingers) and was looking at the cams and was really looking at the STS b/c I thought I was seeing my cables touch the head of the STS. I actually had the bow out in front of me and was moving it around trying to get a good look at the STS while drawn... brain fart, then blammo! Dryfire and bleeding wrist. :thumbs_do

Called the shop this morning.... he's got all the parts I'll need (I have an extra set of strings and cables) and we'll get her torn down and re-setup if she's OK. Keep your fingers crossed. I feel like an ASS for having done this... :embarasse

At least it was with MY bow.

-ZA206
 
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