I think it is BS although I think the stated advantages of smaller diameter shafts is BS as well. I have friends who shoot the RIPs and they shoot great and think they are more accurate. I stick with the old standard shafts since I don't want to deal with outserts and don't want to pay more for shafts. Plus I think standard shafts are easier to fletch.

 

The smaller the more forgiving imo, the fatter you go the more they'll punish form issues

 

I'm due for a new set of arrows and when I bought my new bow I asked the shop guys what they have been hearing about 166 Dia arrows compared to 246 and 204 for hunting. Guy said don't bother with anything other than 246 because the smaller ones are far less forgiving and you need to be perfect with form.

Sounded a little like BS to me but I was holding a set of victory Rip TKO arrows when I asked so he missed a decent sale if that's what his goal was.

Figured I'd ask here, want to order a set in the next 2 or 3 days and have a few picked out in each Dia. So inserts toughness and everything else aside, are smaller Dia less forgiving?

I bought victory VAPs, well off brand cabelas blackout mx3s which are rebranded vaps. The aluminum inserts have held up great. I slammed into a rock after slamming through two targets and it still spun true. I removed the insert to check the carbon which the arrow was still in perfect shape. As far as tuning it took me a little while but they’re good now. They shoot great now and imo they’re not worth it but heck I got them to use this year. I think I will be going back to standard diameter next year though. Just easier component install, I can shoot whatever targets I want, and overall it’s just easier. I hunt white tails and don’t have to worry about wind so standard is just fine because my broadhead will cut a bigger hole than theshaft. Now for 3D and Total archery challenge will be the big test but for hunting specifically I think standard for me is the choice.

Final result after tuning for a bit from 20 yards bareshaft with the micros.

 

The Cabela's/Bass Pro Blackout brand are re-branded Gold Tips

 

I'd find a new bow guy. ANY arrow will do fine. We used to hunt with 21 and 22 series arrows and did just fine. Now I hunt with .166 and .204 exclusively. It's just personal choice.

Smaller diameter arrows WILL have less impact by cross winds and they will follow a broadhead through an animal with less drag. Other than those two very minor items, there is no real difference.

 

I like 5mm arrows as their components are more durable than 4mm. I also don’t want to shoot deep six broadheads. HIT insert with a collar is what I’ve found to be most durable. No issues on forgiveness in flight on skinny shafts.

 

I think it's all a bunch of bull. I can't tell a difference between any of these quality arrows. Flight out to 100 is the same, penetration is the same, & tuning is the same. I've shot in decent wind. The only difference is these. 246 .001s are 1/2 the cost.

 

RIP TKOs are excellent arrows. You would be very happy with them... having said that I shoot standard diameter arrows for everything.

 

Victory VAP TKO's for a couple of years now and I cannot say they are any better or worse than the standard diameter shafts I used before, and after I go through what I currently have I may going back to standard.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, (like I had to ask) but in my mind spine is spine regardless of diameter, so I would think a 300 spine .246 should react the same as a 300 spine .166

 

All good things I wanted to hear. Honestly my desire for a 204 diameter is not for the gpi. I'm leaning into the Gold Tip Quantum arrows or air strikes. I'm trying to be in the 410-420ish range and they get me there best with a good foc. Next choice is likely gold tip velocity XTs if I did standard.

Would have spent a little more to support a local place but here we are. After seeing the setup and tuning they did for my new bow I'm down to 1 archery place. Looking for a press now lol.

 

I have a dozen gold tip velocity xts brand new cut to 27” .300 and a ton of FACT weights, fact weight wrench, inserts, nocks and stuff for them if you’d be interested in buying them if not I’ll just set them up myself. They’re a great lightweight and strong arrow theyre my go to. I’ve tried the air strikes they’re not durable at all just a heads up and the quantams are the same arrow but without the coating and fancy stuff the air strikes have. Let me know if you’re interested I have Bohning heat vanes or rapt x vanes I can throw in with them.

 

There is a HUGE difference in bigger diameter arrows and smaller. Build you 3 .166 or .204 and then build 3 standard size and or bigger. If possible, build with as close to same weight, foc and all that good stuff. Put up an 80 cm target face and go to 50 yards of more. Shoot 30 arrows of each, taking your time, and measure each group size and x’ ****. See which one gives the best of both.
Look at like this. We shoot bigger arrows why? One reason only. To catch lines . Now, if we do that , why wouldn’t the ones shooting longer distances,50 , 70 and 90 meters shoot fat arrows? You can get gpi these days to build light weight arrows for the distance. Why we don’t? Because of wind drift, and forgiveness. Bigger arrows are show your form flaws and bad shots worse than smaller arrows. How many tournaments are lost at 50 meters by one or two points that were only a mm or less from the line. If bigger arrows were just as forgiving and worked as well, I think more would be using them. But the odds are weighed out, and the smaller arrows get the nod.
But at the 20-30 yard averaging hunting distance, does it make that big of a difference. Shoot them and see. Like I always say” you can only tune as well as you can shoot, but your bow will always out shoot better than you can tune”

 

Guy said don't bother with anything other than 246 because the smaller ones are far less forgiving and you need to be perfect with form.

I would have asked him to explain what "far less forgiving" meant and what technical difference in the shafts was the cause, so I could get educated or see a really dumb look.

 

Your guy is one hundred percent correct. There's plenty of science to back up his claims. If you want to take a deep dive on the material you can catch some of Dorge's casts on the Exodus podcast, or watch his lectures on youtube. Gillingham would mostly agree with that line of thinking as well. He does utilize smaller shafts for extreme distances yet endorses large diameter shafts for fixed blades.

By large are you referring to standard diameter?

 

I just switched to Easton Axis 5mm and can tell a difference. Not so much a accuracy, altho groups did tighten up a bit, but in sound difference. The small diameter, at least imo, are quieter.

 

The .204 diameter has worked great for me, noticeably better performing than the standard diameter. I have been holding off of trying the .166 diameter because I just don't like the insert/outsert system that there is currently, it just seems kind of fragile right where the threads attach to the base of the arrow shaft.

 

I personally have arrow builds for specific purposes:

27s - Indoor spots NOT sanctioned by USA/WA
23s - 350 spine for 3D
23s - 400 spine for indoor spots sanctioned by USA/WA
.246" - Hunting
.166" - outdoor target/clout

Each of these builds offer me something different...whether it's grabbing lines for higher scores, reduced wind drift, or leaving more space in the gold for me to stuff more arrows...

When you build arrows, you should look at the process based on what YOU need and build to that purpose. If you are hunting consider how far you expect to be shooting, and choose a shaft that best supports your most "probable" shot.

I don't believe the hype about more penetration with micros but they sure do fly great. If your bow shop is telling you they are less forgiving, chances are he's trying to sell you what he has in stock vs the arrows you want.

 

Been Shooting what so call Conduit being 2514 Arrows for 25 Years and Once tried some GT XT Never Made "ANY" Difference, it is more a Myth / Fade to get some to Buy smaller Diameter Arrows. I have been taking Deer for the 25 plus years now using a 2514 Arrow. Never need Smaller Diameter and Yes I do get "Complete Pass Thru's" But I only take high Percentage Shots some take any shot they get and then you hear them tracking a deer for a long distance, all the deer I have shot at have gone down the farthest maybe 75 yards most under 50 yards. And all were shot with a 2514 with a Magnus 2 Blade Stinger BH. Does all I have needed but again some think smaller has to be better -prove it! I see no need to switch just to know my 2514 does the Job for my Bow Hunting and Practice! If you were shooting field archery and shooting long distance in the wind maybe but most bow hunters shots are under 25 yards so wind unless extremely wind and most do not sit in a Stand when it is Windy!
Just my experience, been bowhunting when carbons were just coming out and never needed to "flex" my aluminum Arrows like you have to with Carbon Arrows as they "crack and splinter"! One less thing I have to deal with! Less and simple is always Better!
LFM

 

Honestly shooting within 30 yards, shoot whatever you want you probably will not see a difference between the two.
Even some of the top pro shooters, shoot whatever components ect that come with the arrows and have no problems.

Build you a few arrows of each ,if you are running a small mechanical or Swhacker with short 2 inch vane's on a .166 arrow then a .246 with blazers and a fixed blade broadhead and test them against each other.

 

I'm due for a new set of arrows and when I bought my new bow I asked the shop guys what they have been hearing about 166 Dia arrows compared to 246 and 204 for hunting. Guy said don't bother with anything other than 246 because the smaller ones are far less forgiving and you need to be perfect with form.

Sounded a little like BS to me but I was holding a set of victory Rip TKO arrows when I asked so he missed a decent sale if that's what his goal was.

Figured I'd ask here, want to order a set in the next 2 or 3 days and have a few picked out in each Dia. So inserts toughness and everything else aside, are smaller Dia less forgiving?

Your guy is one hundred percent correct. There's plenty of science to back up his claims. If you want to take a deep dive on the material you can catch some of Dorge's casts on the Exodus podcast, or watch his lectures on youtube. Gillingham would mostly agree with that line of thinking as well. He does utilize smaller shafts for extreme distances yet endorses large diameter shafts for fixed blades.

 

I doubt there's a huge difference in forgiveness between diameters. I switched to VAP's and later VAP TKO's beginning in 2015. I've found them to be easy to tune, but I can't say they're easier to tune than standard or 5mm. Bow tuning is just bow tuning, regardless of the arrow diameter. People adapt to whatever equipment they're using.

In my own testing, in 15 mph cross-wind, I found micros to have significantly less wind drift than standard diameters beyond 40 yards.

 

You want forgiving? Tune your bow and then tune you better then you won't have to worry about arrow diameter.

Yes, there are arrows for specific purposes, but not totally necessary. Hey, I used .350" diameter arrows for Outdoor target and Field and placed and won. Supposedly, those arrows bordering on hypodermic needles are best for both.

I've use arrows of .290" since forever for hunting (Carbon Express CX300 and Maximas). Used CX300 Selects for target for a good while and did very well. For target I moved up to arrows of .350" - not logs, but not hypodermic needles.

Old picture I've posted many times. 3 arrows in that black dot. Carbon Express CXL 250s, .350" diameter. Velocity - 293 fps.

 

Consider what the goal of the arrow is. Hunting? Target? If you do either outside are you in a windy area? I’ve been shooting standard size and see no real reason to deviate from that. Some may prefer a micro diameter for more penetration and less wind drift but man I’m just gonna say I’m not good enough to believe I’d see a benefit. Perhaps maybe a smaller group at extreme yardages but I’ve been more than happy with where I’m at for hunting and 3D shooting

 

That's BS.......OD has nothing to do with how forgiving an arrow is. ?Maybe? you misunderstood him. They aren't worth the extra trouble and you don't gain anything from them as a hunter.....plus the components are harder to find and broad head ferrules are too large and you need new quivers and on and on.....all for a tiny less wind drift.....and even that is moot if you have a fixed broad head and taller or longer vanes or feathers.

Maybe that's what he meant.......and I totally agree.

 

The only unforgiving thing I’ve found with .166 arrows is components. I hate most of the component systems available for them because in a lot of cases they aren’t very durable

 

The larger the OD of a shaft the easier it is to have the power stroke running down the middle. You have more of an area to play with so to speak. This is common knowledge and has been stated many times over by people like Kevin Wilkey, Tim Gillingham, and literally anyone on Gold Tips staff.

 

The smaller the diameter, the harder it is to center the string behind the center of the arrow so he is 100% correct. I hunted with smaller ones for a couple years but went back to the tried and true standard .244 diameter. The inserts and other components more reliable and readily available. All that said, if you can get a bow tuned with a .166 and shoot them well, you won’t have problems with anything else.

 

I found larger diameter is more forgiving flight wise but wind drag is way worse