My bow is 36 lbs at 28 inch draw length. I shoot tight groups with bareshafts in the group out to 30 yards. My arrows are Victory VAP Jrs. 800 spine, full length (30 1/2) inches, 85 grain points. Set of 12 from Lancaster for about $90. At the range I shoot at, I notice most of the beginners shoot arrows that are too stiff but the experienced archers are in the 700-800 spine range.

 

I shoot 42 lbs at 29 inches. 600s with 90 grain points are a little stiff but shootable at 32 inches. I am going to shoot 700s at 29 or 30 inches next field season. I don't use a clicker, so extra length is not really a problem.

 

I'm shooting 34lbs OTF (29.5 draw length) with 32" 700 spine arrows, and 100gn points inside at 18m. My outside arrows are 30" 900 spine with 80gn points.

Personal form has a lot to do with it, but if I shot your rig I'm pretty sure my bare shafts would be hitting well to the left of the target too.

 

Do you only have the one bareshaft? Especially with lower tolerance carbon arrows I wouldn't trust a single shaft to tell you more than what that arrow does, Murphy's law says you always pick the weird one as a bareshaft. 3 is enough to be confident, and refletching takes just a few minutes after.
1. As long as you have no chance of pulling the arrow back until the point falls off the rest, it's safe. People used to use much shorter arrows back when it was only heavy aluminiums.
2. Before cutting anything, you need to figure out if the the bareshaft is reliable and if you're getting a false tune or not (if the arrow is hitting something on the way past). You can confirm that but changing your draw weight, point weight etc for a few ends just to check the bareshafts move in the correct direction. An inch generally gives you about an extra 5#. But who knows how much you need.
3. They run stiff for more people than they run weak, but it varies as there's a considerable human and equipment factor. Same way a size 9 foot and a size 9 shoe may be a great or terrible fit depending on the brand and shape.
4. You answered yourself.
5. First time with a new shaft type, I cut only two in half inch increments and track how they fly after each cut first as bareshafts (to check they're the same) then fletch one and check the difference. That way, if they're an unusable size, I still have 10 intact shafts to get rid of.

 

Thanks for your replies. This is what I was afraid of. Based on all your setups, the 600's seem too stiff even if I cut them an inch longer. I am surprised that some of your setups with longer arrows are still even stiff. Makes me wonder where to start now. Cerel... I did only strip one arrow to make a bare shaft. I will strip more today and see if i got the bad one in the bunch, but I doubt it. I may just save these for when I reach my target weight of around 42#'s. Hopefully at that point I can get them to tune well enough to shoot at 70M.

 

did shorter 700s work for you? what length and draw weight was your old setup?

 

I believe that 1" from the plunger button to the end of the point is minimum recommended safe length.

FWIW I recently found that while trying to move my wife's bare bow indoor aiming point up using Victory VAP arrows 27" 900 spine tuned pretty much the same as 29" 700 spine. So 1" length per spine size for Victory VAPs. Obviously this correlation may not be applicable to mixed brands.

I would try increasing the poundage to the point where the Avalon flies close to your aiming point to determine if it's possible with the set of limbs you have.

I would put points and nocks in three full length Skylons and shoot them. You can shoot them without the clicker. I would start with the heaviest points you have available. Since the Skylon's ID's are .166" TopHat points work great as they allow you to try weights from 70-130 grn. with the weights being reusable, sort of. If the bare shaft with heavy point is still stiff at max poundage then you have no choice but to go to a weaker spine. If they are weak then reduce the poundage to what you are comfortable with. If they go stiff before you get there then you may have to go with a weaker spine. If still weak then you can start cutting them in 1/4" increments leaving the heavy points until you get to the length you want. Again if they go stiff before you get there then you may have to go with a weaker spine. If they are still weak start taking out point weight. If still weak then try adding fletch weight. You don't necessarily have to change the vanes/feathers. Weight can be added to the recess in the pins. Beyond this you need a stiffer arrow. If your able to make adjustments that have them fly reasonably close to your aiming point fletch three and make fine tune changes.

You don't mention how much fletch weight there is. 12.5 grn. Zen vanes are going to fly differently than 0.8 grn. Spinwings. I'm an advocate of vane compensation for bare shafts when the fletch weight is above 10 grns. I would also highly recommend Bohning Ferr-L-Tite Cool Flex if you are switching out points a lot.

Always be mindful of archer induced errors when shooting the bare shafts as well as backstop induced errors. Hopefully you can make the Skylon's work and not have to buy more arrows.

 

OK odd ball here, I shoot 38# OTF bare bow RH and my BS 500 spine 29 inch shafts with 150 grn point always hit right so weak??????????? I know they shouldn't but they do-- I have found by plunger tuning I can bring them back to the fletched group to the point I can often use them as scoring arrows and for Bare Bow that is good enuf for me. The plunger tension seems to have an effect on spine testing BS for me????

 

OK odd ball here, I shoot 38# OTF bare bow RH and my BS 500 spine 29 inch shafts with 150 grn point always hit right so weak??????????? I know they shouldn't but they do--

Not an odd ball. I am 'hard' on spine too. It is so personalized that you cannot be too religious about it or get tunnel vision on the the spine charts or others' results. I am discovering more and more how personalized this is.

Worse thing to do is stagnate. From what you have said, I would simply try a weaker spine and follow the good advice above about being very conservative with your cuts. Yes you can shoot great with fletched stiff arrows, and I wouldn't change this close to a contest either.

That said, afterwards, keep pushing for a good tune. The mental stress when is so much less when you can make predictable and accurate adjustments during a contest. It will override the stress of starting a used arrow warehouse!

I have 7 archers in the family that I also buy groceries for! I am doomed to that fate anyway. Cannot put up with bad arrows, though. The bareshafts in the 10 ring at least force me concentrate on the real problem: ME.

 

Funny, I was just trying my old 700's cut to 29". They are showing stiff as well, but are short and have a 90gn point. The fletching on the avalon 600's is EP23 which is about 5gn per vane,so 15 grains. I have EP16's that I like and plan on using them on the skylons. They are 3.2gns, so 9.6 total. So a 5.5gn lighter if I switch vanes, so that will obviously help. I am also using pin nock bushings and fivics lg groove pin nocks, so if i switch to a push in nock like a BE M nock, i can cut some weight there as well. I am shooting an indoor tournament this weekend, and I am able to get the avalons to shoot in the middle with apparent good flight, so i am just gonna shoot them as is and work on the experimentation after. It is interesting, i shoot competitive rifle and reload my own rounds and you can really go down a rabbit hole with powder types, amounts, bullet weights, and such. It really can drive you crazy. I never would have thought that archery had a rabbit hole right next to the precision reload hole....

 

My old setup was 68" bow, 30 pound limbs and an estimated draw length of about 29". I didn't really pay any attention to tune at that point because I could barely hit the target. I just bought 700's cause that is what the Black Eagle chart said to get. I am assuming they were stiff then too, as my sight was favoring out quite a bit (RH shooter).

 

Off topic:
7 Archers in how many divisions each? Sounds almost as crazy as having an entire family all get sucked into 3-gun all at the same time.

Back on topic:
+1 for finding the tune that works for you. Treat the spine charts as starting points, and then work you're way from there.

 

Woof,
your arrow is tuned. Your plunger adjustments make sense and are predictable, your arrow flight proves it. I plugged your numbers into the Easton calculator:

I usually land on the low range of this and it sounds like you do to. I would miss the target with a 800 bare shaft on a 38# bow, unless it had the efficiency of a straight limb wood (not bamboo) fiberglass longbow.

It is actually indicative of a clean release and an efficient bow/limb setup that you can go stiffer on spine. The limbs punch the arrow quick and hard. Another archery discipline that uses release aids proves this out. Stick with what you got. Don't abandon good physics (that works!) for nonsense.

 

Lol, Nonsense?
Have you tried tuning a 800 spine arrow at 38#?

800 spine VAPs with 80gn points, 40ish# on the fingers at 28” draw is what I used to earn a bronze medal at The World Games this past year. That bow was in fact absolutely tuned with zero “nonsense”.

I’m trying to give out information and advice based on experience shooting and tuning at the highest level in barebow. I did not say that it was wrong, I just gave advice for what they could try next time they wanted to mess with it. This is the second time you’ve brushed off my advice as nonsense. One thing I’ve learned that’s helped me get to a high level is keeping an open mind. I guess the problem with social media is differentiating between someone’s opinion vs someone’s experience.

 

Thats great r_davis, but not everyone is you. You seem so fixated that everyone will have the same results as you. Congratulations on your success. No hard feeling, but you are arguing against math that may just work for some people.

And yes, I know by experience an 800 will go right of the target weak at 30m from a 38# bow with high performance carbon limbs if I shoot it...yes my DL is longer and my arrows are longer...just like the guy that has a tuned 500 at 38#. Get over it.

I am not questioning your 800s, just know It wouldn't work for me or the guy that has a tuned 500.

PM me give me a call we can discuss it man to man. No disrespect intended. Just saw it as fanatic proselytizing....yes the problem with social media is our perceptions can be wrong.

 

I have 'Target Apathy' too. Mine comes from "acceptable sight picture" firearms training for close quarters combat. They never sent me to sniper school to balance it out. So we are both hard on spine and light on our aim!

 

You could also just use Limbwalker’s bow square method.

 

I recently used the plumb arrow with Beiter blocks method of alignment. For me it was easier because of the narrower width of the arrow as compared to the wider stabilizer. The hard part was keeping things levels without a Hamskea 3rd axis level. I was just using a small set of levels that came with my stereo component stand.

I tried out that method because I was having doubts about my stabilizer bushing being slightly off. I'm happy to confirm that it was not. When after using the plumb arrow and getting everything aligned, I then put the stabilizer back on and everything was right down the middle. I had just made an error on my initial setup for limb alignment using the stabilizer.

 

Super easy way to put a bow on plane without a long rod is to remove the grip, rubber band 2 arrows (one on each side) on the riser where the grip was letting them stick up on each side of the string. Now you can align your limbs with beiter blocks while keeping the string centered between the arrows. You’ll have a bow that’s on plane and aligned.

 

I just measure the distance to the string from a flat part of the riser with a bow square. If it’s even on both sides, and the blocks show aligned, then it’s on plane down the center. Tuning forks help, but are generally superfluous

 

Superfluous only if you already have Beiter blocks.