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Discussion Starter #1
backtension, push pull. seemingly two ways of shooting by many coaches. or are they?

ive shot backtension for years. looking for the right technique for myself and trying new things is just part of the fun.


ive heard push pull isnt back tension. im not sure that both parties are agruing a loosing battle on whats what.

since i cannot feel what a coach is actually feeling and putting his words with his own deffinition. i just cant help think but if one is good at one he is also doing the other.

coaches who teach push pull methods, im not so sure that they arnt talking about the feel of just a solid bow arm. the same in which backtension is based off of. the pushing the pin into the target can be achieved without ever actually physically pushing the bow forward, thus resulting in a solid bow arm and aiming through the shot.

most teach a stationary bow arm and just a pull type motion for backtension. or squeezing shoulder blades, blah blah blah.

im sure i can get plenty of arguments on this. im beginning to think if you have one down, its the same as the other. but what you actually are achieving is which mental state lets you relax the right muscles since we all dont think the same and we all dont have the same reactions to thought and shooting processes..

im going with mental.
 

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And we don't all have the same physical dimensions and strength in various muscle groups, not to mention old injuries that require favouring. I'm in that catagory and have a pretty weird draw action. The beginning of my draw is push pull, but incorporates back tension as I get close to full draw. Looks a bit strange but works well for me.
 

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different

They are different. I know some push pullers who say that they pull with the bow ARM. No rhomboids involved.
 

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Think about the FITA shooters w/fingers
They must draw the bow to DL minus 1/4" ?? then aquire the target---then draw the rest of the way through the clicker to get the same exact energy and release at that moment so as not to collapse and loose both energy and form tension
They can shoot 1400 FITA still doing it after 150 arrows

They are using the same muscles from start to finish of the shot----and and the game

And so am I----at least I hope I am at 150 arrows

Good shoot'n----think'n
 

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I will chime in that they are different to me...

To shoot my evo I really have to push harder to get it to go off cleanly. With a hinge, since there is a slight subconcious manipulation I can push less and get a strong release.

The evo needs more front arm tension so it really feels like ur pushing hard...

Just my opinions and findings while mastering.
 

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Think about the FITA shooters w/fingers
They must draw the bow to DL minus 1/4" ?? then aquire the target---then draw the rest of the way through the clicker to get the same exact energy and release at that moment so as not to collapse and loose both energy and form tension
They can shoot 1400 FITA still doing it after 150 arrows

They are using the same muscles from start to finish of the shot----and and the game

And so am I----at least I hope I am at 150 arrows

Good shoot'n----think'n
Care to elaborate the clicker? I am a complete newb to recurve although I feel I'm pretty advanced in the compound world haha. Just never learned how those guys do it really. Terms like clicker and plunger etc lose me:)
 

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Care to elaborate the clicker? I am a complete newb to recurve although I feel I'm pretty advanced in the compound world haha. Just never learned how those guys do it really. Terms like clicker and plunger etc lose me:)
A recurve has no wall to pull against, so it makes it difficult to pull to the exact same length everytime, (which effects poundage) so they use a clicker which is usually just a little metal strip (somtimes carbon) that attaches to your riser, then you put your arrow under the clicker and as you back to full draw the arrow get pulled back out from under the clicker and the clicker slaps against the riser making a click sound and that's when you release the arrow ! :darkbeer:

It just helps to insure they are pulling back to the exact same length every shot.

I hope that's understandable ? ;)

Woody
 

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I think both methods work fine. If you are consistent with either, it works.. :lol:

I'd say more compound shooters don't 'push' per se, but 'set their bow arm'. Some with bent elbows are pushing whether they want to or not, but I shoot straight armed, set my bow arm and 'pull' through the shot (using back tension, not actually 'pullin'. ;) )
 

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Discussion Starter #9
i guess depends on your form, i shoot straight but not locked. i have two guys im friends with that do as well. one does alot of relaxing throught the shot, which is nathan brooks. the other shoots with alot of tension, chris hacker.

ive had alot of oppritunities to bash some good shooters ideas and techniques, n the ones that work all kinda have the same factors in mind. like i said, i really dont know that is not just a mental way of thinking, more on the way they "think" the shot is being executed, and how they put that in their own words.

one can argue that push pull isnt backtension, i may say that maybe its not, maybe its a version of backtension. i think i will just shoot.
 

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I shoot backtension! That being said, I've found something new recently! If my bone to bone form is correct and the DL is right, pulling with the right side of the rhomboids will automatically create a push in the bow hand even though the muscles of the left arm are relaxed. It's like having a 2x4 that extends all the way to the draw side rhomboids. When those contract, the 2x4 gets pushed forward in a straight line! I'm really liking the consistency and feel of this!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I shoot backtension! That being said, I've found something new recently! If my bone to bone form is correct and the DL is right, pulling with the right side of the rhomboids will automatically create a push in the bow hand even though the muscles of the left arm are relaxed. It's like having a 2x4 that extends all the way to the draw side rhomboids. When those contract, the 2x4 gets pushed forward in a straight line! I'm really liking the consistency and feel of this!
exactly, this is what im talking about. if you look at someone who shoots push pull well, they have pretty much the same form. so is the push phyiscal or maybe more mental.

i shoot along the lines you said. my right side is using the right back muscles, but i do get a push on the bow arm. thats where i put my concentration and just let the shot happen. shooting a straight style bow arm, but there is not a real phyisical push.
 

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i believe that the term "backtension" has been used too liberally in archery!
if we take the beginner archer and set him or her up with a hinge release and tell them to fire the release without showing them a correct way to fire the release you would get many different ways to engage and make the release fire! the main goal in getting a release to fire is to have it go off without consciously thinking about it. all of our conscious effert should be directed towards aiming. now when it comes to which muscles we use to get that result can be a very debatable argument. my personal opinion on this is to use the biggest muscle we have, the back muscles. the push pull method can be very successful but i believe it causes too many inconsistancies in form to use. your using too much muscle in the bow arm and that can lead to shaking and fatigue the longer the execution takes. if you juat keep the bow arm locked out, and not engaged in any of the physical parts of aiming you can eliminate some of the issues you will get with the push pull method.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
i believe that the term "backtension" has been used too liberally in archery!
if we take the beginner archer and set him or her up with a hinge release and tell them to fire the release without showing them a correct way to fire the release you would get many different ways to engage and make the release fire! the main goal in getting a release to fire is to have it go off without consciously thinking about it. all of our conscious effert should be directed towards aiming. now when it comes to which muscles we use to get that result can be a very debatable argument. my personal opinion on this is to use the biggest muscle we have, the back muscles. the push pull method can be very successful but i believe it causes too many inconsistancies in form to use. your using too much muscle in the bow arm and that can lead to shaking and fatigue the longer the execution takes. if you juat keep the bow arm locked out, and not engaged in any of the physical parts of aiming you can eliminate some of the issues you will get with the push pull method.

i just think push pull can really be exagerated in its deffinition. exagerated= inconsistancies
 

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I shoot backtension! That being said, I've found something new recently! If my bone to bone form is correct and the DL is right, pulling with the right side of the rhomboids will automatically create a push in the bow hand even though the muscles of the left arm are relaxed. It's like having a 2x4 that extends all the way to the draw side rhomboids. When those contract, the 2x4 gets pushed forward in a straight line! I'm really liking the consistency and feel of this!
This is how I feel as well! Good post.

Lien2
 

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backtension, push pull. seemingly two ways of shooting by many coaches. or are they?

ive shot backtension for years. looking for the right technique for myself and trying new things is just part of the fun.


ive heard push pull isnt back tension. im not sure that both parties are agruing a loosing battle on whats what.

since i cannot feel what a coach is actually feeling and putting his words with his own deffinition. i just cant help think but if one is good at one he is also doing the other.

coaches who teach push pull methods, im not so sure that they arnt talking about the feel of just a solid bow arm. the same in which backtension is based off of. the pushing the pin into the target can be achieved without ever actually physically pushing the bow forward, thus resulting in a solid bow arm and aiming through the shot.

most teach a stationary bow arm and just a pull type motion for backtension. or squeezing shoulder blades, blah blah blah.

im sure i can get plenty of arguments on this. im beginning to think if you have one down, its the same as the other. but what you actually are achieving is which mental state lets you relax the right muscles since we all dont think the same and we all dont have the same reactions to thought and shooting processes..

im going with mental.
Push/pull isnt true back tension, but its how I shoot. I've tried both, and really as long as your getting a suprise release there is no difference in my opinion.
 

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... the pushing the pin into the target can be achieved without ever actually physically pushing the bow forward, thus resulting in a solid bow arm and aiming through the shot. ...
I've always called what I do "pushing" but it is more like what you describe. Its not so much of a "push" as it is a resistance to the pull.

As far as not calling it back tension, I dare someone to stand behind my bow elbow.:D
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I've always called what I do "pushing" but it is more like what you describe. Its not so much of a "push" as it is a resistance to the pull.

As far as not calling it back tension, I dare someone to stand behind my bow elbow.:D
i understand exactly what your saying.
 

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I've always called what I do "pushing" but it is more like what you describe. Its not so much of a "push" as it is a resistance to the pull.

As far as not calling it back tension, I dare someone to stand behind my bow elbow.:D
I agree with what You said about the "resistance", but just because there is elbow follow-through, it doesn't necessarily mean You are using BACK muscles.
 

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I think both methods work fine. If you are consistent with either, it works.. :lol:

I'd say more compound shooters don't 'push' per se, but 'set their bow arm'. Some with bent elbows are pushing whether they want to or not, but I shoot straight armed, set my bow arm and 'pull' through the shot (using back tension, not actually 'pullin'. ;) )
You learned well grasshoppa :D

Your BT coach must have been pretty decent :wink:
 

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I agree with what You said about the "resistance", but just because there is elbow follow-through, it doesn't necessarily mean You are using BACK muscles.
...how about that ache right between the shoulder blade and the T2 vertebra after a couple hundred arrows?;)

I'll try to describe my process related to "tension"...as best as I can:

-address the target
-lean into the target (I have to do this to keep the bow shoulder down - its not attached as well as everyone elses)
-draw using the back and with as little shoulder and arm muscles as possible.
-hit anchor and acquire the sight picture
-relax everything that's not holding the weight of the string and bow up.
-"pull" comes from the rhomboids and does not stop until I either let down, or the shot goes off.
-"push" like Rivershark described there is no real movement to it, but a steadying of the sight picture and gives a definable "direction" to the whole shot. I feel like I'm pushings against a 300-year old oak.

For the way I shoot, I like hard walls and low letoff as it helps the flow of the shot to me.

I think that back tension can be achieved with either the pull (like what Dee Wilde describes...everything is on the "backend" of the shot) or with "push pull". Or not. you could just as well be muscling the shot off with just the bow shoulder or arm in either instance.

There is no consideration to the "front" half of the shot in "back tension". I think alot of it is lost in translation...
 
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