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Discussion Starter #1
Bare shaft tuners need your input. As you know tuning for verticle is easy by either moving nock or rest. Question and debate comes with tuning right/left.

We got my friends arrows vertically set at 5-10-15 yds. We also noticed that the farther out we got the more the arrow would place right. I told him he could:

1). Move his rest to the right about 1/16"
2). Decrease the amount of weight he is pulling
3). Get a heavier spined arrow.

He said:

1). If the arrow is going right he needs to move the rest to the left.
2). Decreasing weight will not effect the right/left what-so-ever
3). Heavier spined arrows will only effect the vertical and not the horizontal.

Who is right? Mind you we are tuning bare shafts. Help us end this debate!
 

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Zen Archery said:
Bare shaft tuners need your input. As you know tuning for verticle is easy by either moving nock or rest. Question and debate comes with tuning right/left.

We got my friends arrows vertically set at 5-10-15 yds. We also noticed that the farther out we got the more the arrow would place right. I told him he could:

1). Move his rest to the right about 1/16"
2). Decrease the amount of weight he is pulling
3). Get a heavier spined arrow.

He said:

1). If the arrow is going right he needs to move the rest to the left.
2). Decreasing weight will not effect the right/left what-so-ever
3). Heavier spined arrows will only effect the vertical and not the horizontal.

Who is right? Mind you we are tuning bare shafts. Help us end this debate!
Not enough information, Release or fingers? Compound or recurve?

You might start out at the Easton web site and get the free download. It is fair at solving the problems with tuning - a little outdated. But why in the world would you want to bare shaft test out to 20 yards?

I’ll be honest, if you test ok at 5, 10 & 15 yards, than only a “more than slight” wind should make it change at 20 yards, are you shooting outside? If you had a FOC less than about 7%, you could get a similar behavior, but it would not be consistent to one side; you should get parachuting which causes the arrow to go in almost any direction.

Moving the arrow rest to either side depends more upon where the node of the arrow is, relative to the rest, than anything else. Sorry, I cannot look upon an arrow and tell you where the node will be (factor of stiffness of arrow, FOC, etc.). The ‘book’ says that you are right, but my experience has indicated that your friend may be correct (if he shoots a short arrow and the arrow rest is set very close to the tip at full draw or if he shoots a long arrow with the rest set back on the arrow). Only a little trial and error will answer that. Decreasing pull weight effectively increases arrow spine so items 2 & 3 are essentially the same. If you/he is using a compound and using a mechanical release, the “book” informs us that the arrow flexes up and down - he would be correct. Again, I am not convinced. I have discovered that many bows have build in torque due to cable guards and that you do get a little left/right imbalance. This can be adjusted out if you desire.

Leroy Dukes of Oregon once told me that he shot a bare shaft at 60 yards and it hit the same spot as his fletched arrow. I was not so sure but I let my mentor think I believed him. I tuned my arrows with paper, than went to broadheads. I have found that subtle movement of the rest can get field tips and broadheads to hit in the same spot if the arrow is correctly spined. I then shot my own bare shaft at 60 yards. It did not hit the same spot (it was a little high but that was probably due to the lack of fletching to slow it down.

Isn’t tunning fun????????????????
 

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There are so many things that can effect a bare shaft it's almost voodoo tuning one, at times. :)

Any little grip input by the shooter will seriously effect where the bare shaft goes. A lot of times a bow that shoots perfect for one person will not for the other.

I would say do the usual, check the bow timing, tiller, etc. then try playing with his rest to the left or right in small incriments and see if either way helps. Sometimes you end up moving it the opposite way you think you should. If you think all that is good, then I would probably start wtih a full length shaft and start hacking off 1/4" at a time till you get to where it should be.

A arrow spine program like archers advantage or The Archery program are good investments for picking out good arrows, or at least getting very close, so is a draw board to get a true draw curve on the bow. These programs have always been very accurate in picking out good shafts for me. I do use a drawboard though and accuracy of the data you put in has a huge factor on the accuracy of data you get back.

For example if my bare shafts are hitting with my field points to say 30 yards on my ultratec xt 3000, I turned it up about 2lbs and that bare shaft shifted almost 2' at 30 yards. So you can play with draw weight and arrow shaft length as well and it will make a large distance impact at longer yardages for your bareshaft.

I've tried all the tunning methods in the past, and if done right most of them get you to nearly the same place. I know when I walk back tested my last bow then bare shaft tested it, my bare shafts would hit with my field points to about 30 yards, oddly enough it shot broadheads right with my field points as well. I suppose if you were really crazy you could bare shaft with a broadhead on :) You could probably breath on the rest wrong and get the point of impact to change on that one.

I think most of the really good shooters once they get their bow close with whatever tunning method they prefer they go to group tunning anyway. For those of us that can't shoot 2" groups at 60 yards I try to just go for either getting my broadheads closest to my field points for hunting or for my target bow getting a bare shaft to go with my fletched arrows.

So don't be afraid to try unorthodox stuff, move the rest the "wrong" way or anything like that, sometimes it's just trial and error.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Great info...

Compound Bow
Release (Center Release)
Same Pin
28.5 " Beeman ICS 400 8.9 gpi
100 gr Tips
Drop Away Rest (Vital Bow Gear & Trophy Ridge)
No changes with Sight or Rest

As for form, Easton suggest you use 2 bare shafts same weight & points. We know that the backing can alter the direction of an arrow so we shoot 6 bare shafted arrows and they are all hitting consistantly in the same place.

Nodes? I didn't think nodes came into play with a drop away rest? I could be wrong?
 
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Zen Archery said:
Great info...

Compound Bow
Release (Center Release)
Same Pin
28.5 " Beeman ICS 400 8.9 gpi
100 gr Tips
Drop Away Rest (Vital Bow Gear & Trophy Ridge)
No changes with Sight or Rest

As for form, Easton suggest you use 2 bare shafts same weight & points. We know that the backing can alter the direction of an arrow so we shoot 6 bare shafted arrows and they are all hitting consistantly in the same place.

Nodes? I didn't think nodes came into play with a drop away rest? I could be wrong?
My experience is that bare shaft testing for a release shooter is prety much useless as slight hand tourque can have a dramatic effect on arrow impact. When shot with a release the arrow flexes up and down, when shot with fingers it flexes left and right.

I have found that for me the easiest way to check spine with a release is to ensure that your sight is level and then shoot at 20yrds then move to 40yrds and check your left right impact, then to 60yrds back to the farthest distance you shoot at, checking your left, right impact. If you notice that your arrows hit left or right at distance then you check your spine. Redo until your arrows hit the same left ,right plane at all distances.
 

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"Nodes? I didn't think nodes came into play with a drop away rest? I could be wrong?"

Not sure about with a release....but I know they come into play with a fall away, and fingers.;)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
hollowpoint please clarify??? How do front nodes come into effect? I know there is slight paradox but not as much with shoot thru or forked rests. The paradox is caused by the arrow tip but not b/c of the node.

So the question is what would you do with all the options listed above to correct the arrow from going right with a bare shaft!?
 
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Nodes are the points at which the arrows flex is is laid over top of each other. If you take the out ward flex and lay it over the inward flex the two places they match up are the nodes. if you have to correct arrow the nodes will line up in a straight line back to the bow. When the arrow flex is different from inward to out ward they will not line up and cause the bare shaft to fly left or right, when shot with fingers.

The type of arrow rest you use realy doesn't make hole lot of difference. Like I mentioned before use a release and bare shaft is wasting time as the results would anacdotal(sp)
 

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Nodes

I tested 3 different length arrows with my fall away, and fingers.
What I found was with the Node on or an inch in front of the arm, they flew great...with the node an inch behind the arm, they flew bad, and impacted about 5" high left, and tail right at 20yds.


They are impacting to the right.....but is the angle of the shaft in the target the same as the fletched arrows, or is it nock L or R??

The angle of the shaft in the target will tell you how it is coming off the bow....if its nock left, it means the shaft is coming out of the bow with the tip pointing to the right....so you should move the rest to the left to correct it.
 

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I did not do a bareshaft tune (yet), but longer arrows (some 4" over plunger) made my finger release more forgiving, compared to shorter shafts (some 1" over plunger).

The short ones were Vapors 3000, just over 29" nock to shaft, 75g points + insert.
The longer ones Epics 400, 32" nock to shaft, 100g points + insert.

Bow is set at 40# (measured). Both arrows are overspined.
 

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I tried bare shaft testing, but at 15 yards the shaft did not seam to enter straight. I did some homework and found that unless a weight is added to the shaft that is equal to the feathers or vane, the arrow will probably test as being too weak. At 15 yards , I shoot three fetched arrows and three bare shaft.
If the bare shaft impact above the fetched, your nock is too high.
If the bare shaft impacts below the fetched, your nock is too low.
If the bare shaft impacts to the left of the fetched group, your rest is too far left or the draw weight is too low.
If the bare shaft is to the right of your fetched group, your rest is too far right or the draw weight is too high.
If the bare shaft impact anywhere else you probably have a combination of adjustments to make.
 

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Bowgren said:
I tried bare shaft testing, but at 15 yards the shaft did not seam to enter straight. I did some homework and found that unless a weight is added to the shaft that is equal to the feathers or vane, the arrow will probably test as being too weak. At 15 yards , I shoot three fetched arrows and three bare shaft.
If the bare shaft impact above the fetched, your nock is too high.
If the bare shaft impacts below the fetched, your nock is too low.
If the bare shaft impacts to the left of the fetched group, your rest is too far left or the draw weight is too low.
If the bare shaft is to the right of your fetched group, your rest is too far right or the draw weight is too high.
If the bare shaft impact anywhere else you probably have a combination of adjustments to make.
I disagree.
With no fletching to counteract it the up/down at 15yds will do the opposite...beacause they are coming off the bow pointed that way.

If a BS impacts above the fletched, (or nock low)...your nock is too LOW.
If a BS impacts below the flethched, (or nock high)...your nock is too HIGH.

I do agree with this part though.
If you have the right spined shafts, the right to left should be the same too.
Impact to the left, (or nock right), your rest is too far to the left.
Impact to the right, (or nock left), your rest is too far to the right.
UNLESS it's a spine issue.

My bare shafts will impact with my fletched, but if the nock, and center shot is not right...they will impact with the tail up/down, or left/right.
.
 

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What I've read (and experience confirmed) about bare shaf tune is as Hollopoint has posted.
 
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