Archery Talk Forum banner
1 - 20 of 53 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
174 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just finished from Paper tuning and walk back tuning and every thing is perfect ..

When I tune my bow bare shaft tuning method ..

The bare shaft keep hitting low than the fletched arrows ...

I lower the nock point, d-loop and peep .. but nothing changes ...
I raise the arrow rest .. also nothing changes ,,, it keep hitting low ...

I checked my Bow spec. (ATA, brace high, cam lean, cam timing, Draw weight and Draw length) everything is good !

My bow is Hoyt pro comp Elite with spiral cam, set on 56# dw , 26"dl
I shoot Easton X10 protour 520


Green Wall Room

Yellow Green Circle Recreation Shooting sport

I test the bare shaft tuning on 20yrd and 30yrd

Where is the problem !?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,911 Posts
What type of rest are using?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
174 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,911 Posts
Have you tried spraying your arrow and vanes with a little foot powder spray to check for rest contact?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
174 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·

·
Dirt Racer
Joined
·
1,523 Posts
From the angle the bare shaft is hitting the target I would think the rest is to high or nocking point is low but I'm really just guessing, someone with more knowledge will come along shortly and be able to help you out.
 

·
Socket Man
Joined
·
24,701 Posts
Ok, when you said in the original post that they were hitting low I was thinking a couple inches but not almost two feet. The funny thing is they are relatively straight into the target.

To me you need to just start over and do a complete tune job using a specific method and not just try to tweek your current situtation because something is really weird. I have tuning articles that you can do that are well defined that you can use and if you follow them you will be able to kill whatever issue is causing this problem, they are at my blog and you just have to do a google search for:

Padgettarchery blog
 

·
Coram Deo
Joined
·
3,287 Posts
Leave your rest at center shot, horizontal and adjust your control cable. Turn it 1/2 turn at a time and see what happens to the bare shaft. Been there, done that... You can walk the bare shaft up and down the paper by adjusting the control cable and the top cam may very well hit before the bottom. On my Hoyts, 3 of them are 2 Bow Time Machine clicks ahead and the Contender is a full 3 clicks ahead. What's happening is the top is spooling faster than the bottom and throwing the bare shaft nock high/nose low. You can adjust this with extreme rest position or you can easily adjust it with the control cable.

See what happens AFTER you take Padgett's advice and set everything square and center again.
 

·
Socket Man
Joined
·
24,701 Posts
My thing is with a hoyt or a bowtech you have draw stops that are hitting the strings and they need to start out perfectly synced or basically hitting at the exact same time. Once you get this done you move the d-loop up and down the string a little until you get rid of the vertical tears, then you move on to tweeking the horizontal tears. Your bow must start out in the neutral factory spec setup with cams synced or you are going to get really lost in your tuning. I cover all of this in the articles.
 

·
Cato
Joined
·
4,118 Posts
I am not much on bare shafting with a release aide, but have done a lot with fingers. Just a wild hair here. Sometimes a rest set can be too low, and the arrow will bounce off the rest causing the bare shaft to hit low. Before you redo everything, you might just try raising the loop/nock set to see how the bare shaft responds.
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
I just finished from Paper tuning and walk back tuning and every thing is perfect ..

When I tune my bow bare shaft tuning method ..

The bare shaft keep hitting low than the fletched arrows ...

I lower the nock point, d-loop and peep .. but nothing changes ...
I raise the arrow rest .. also nothing changes ,,, it keep hitting low ...

I checked my Bow spec. (ATA, brace high, cam lean, cam timing, Draw weight and Draw length) everything is good !

My bow is Hoyt pro comp Elite with spiral cam, set on 56# dw , 26"dl
I shoot Easton X10 protour 520


View attachment 2032565

View attachment 2032566

I test the bare shaft tuning on 20yrd and 30yrd

Where is the problem !?
FIRST,
Threestars...

You are using a BLADE arrow rest.

1) what blade thickness...I suggest you switch to the 0.008 thickness blade.
2) what blade angle...I suggest 30 degrees

3) drop the blade rest all the way as LOW as you can, to get the blade OUT OF THE WAY

4) check your d-loop position, the HEIGHT of the d-loop.
....set d-loop HEIGHT, so that your arrow is parallel to your TARGET sight.

LIKE THIS.



TWO railroad tracks.

TARGET sight extension arm = RAILROAD track #1.
ARROW = RAILROAD track #2.

Helps to do this on a table.

Now,
with your BLADE arrow rest all the way in the BOTTOM position...

work the VERTICAL micro adjust to move the blade HIGHER and HIGHER, until the blade just KISSES the arrow, with ZERO BENDING on the blade.

WE are RE-SETTING the HEIGHT of the Beiter BLADE arrow rest.

BLADE arrow rest height was PART of the problem,
probably 99% of your problem.


BLADE arrow rest VERTICAL position...as FAR DOWN as possible.



Now, moving the arrow rest to a HIGHER position, CLOSER to the arrow...arrow position is still PARALLEL to the target sight arm.



Now, moving the arrow rest to an even HIGHER position, CLOSER to the arrow.



FULL CONTAC with the blade just KISSING the arrow tube. Bow is still on top of my KITCHEN TABLE.



ZERO BENDING in the blade. VERY VERY light contact.

THIS is how to set the STARTING position for BLADE arrow rest height.
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
BUT
BUT
BUT
if the arrow is SAGGING sooooo MUCH,
then the arrows will fly terrible.

Nope.

The VANES are designed to RAISE The point of the arrow to LEVEL arrow flight,
when the front stabilizer is also LEVEL.

So,
the BLADE, the super thin 0.008 BLADE is NOT designed to hold the arrow LEVEL,
when the target sight arm is LEVEL.

The BLADE is designed ONLY to provide shock absorption,
to CUSHION the violent arrow tube BENDING during the MASSIVE launch acceleration.

So,
with my BLADE sagging THIS MUCH...

what groups did I get at 18 meters?



AFTER I did TWO things...

1) move the arrow rest...a DS ADvantage BLADE rest 2 CLICKS on the micro adjust knob = 0.004 inches = 0.102 millimeters
to fine tune the shock absorber power. Move the blade rest LOWER, you have less shock absorber power. Move the blade rest HIGHER, you have MORE shock absorber power.

2) creep tune, AFTER you do step 1...adjust blade arrow rest height, with my KITCHEN table procedure.


HOW to creep tune?



Horizontal strip of masking tape at 18 meters. Aim at the TOP edge of the tape.

Fire a fletched arrow and HIT the top edge of the masking tape.
Fire a bareshaft arrow and HIT the top edge of the masking tape.
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
I had the EXACT same symptoms as you.
Tuning a blade arrow rest was HOURS and HOURS.

I tried tiller tuning.
I tried working the control cable.
I tried HUNDREDS of things.

ALWAYS, bareshaft hitting LOW.

For PAPER tuner guys, a BLADE rest was driving me ABSOLUTELY NUTS....always a MASSIVE or MEDIUM TAIL HIGH paper tear.

What was the solution?

Why did tuning my new blade arrow rest take only 5 MINUTES?

The GRIV Torqueless Loop, and Beiter Pin Out Nocks.



So,
WHY a Torqueless Loop?

Many folks try it and go straight back to the d-loop.

WHY?

Cuz they are a pain to figure out.

1) must work the LENGTH..and build many many TORQUELESS loops to find the exact length that works BEST.
....Yes, LOOP length makes a difference for LONG range shooters, like ThreeStars.

2) MOST folks tie the nocking points TOO tight, TOO CLOSE to each other.



The two tied nocking points, the GAP between the UPPER and LOWER tied nocking points,
MUST be set with the bow in a DRAW BOARD,
MUST be set with the bow at FULL DRAW.

That's right.

AT FULL DRAW.

WHY?

CUz of nock pinch. A Torqueless loop pulls your bowstring from UNDER the nock, and creates TREMENDOUS down pressure.

This is good for a BLADE arrow rest. Makes a BLADE arrow rest super EASY to use.

THIS also eliminates the HIGH PAPER TEAR for a BLADE arrow rest
THIS ALSO kills the BARESHAFT smacking WAY LOW...for bareshaft tuners.


So,
HOW do you set a nocking point, the UPPER nocking point on a DRAW BOARD?

You set the UPPER nocking point WAY SKY HIGH,
and then,
you LOOK at your bowstring, when the bow is at FULL DRAW.

Then,
you take the bow off the draw board
and you move the UPPER tied nocking point LOWER and LOWER
until you have THIS spacing for Beiter Pin Out Nocks.

For my DST 40,
the upper and lower tied nocking points are DOUBLE the thickness of my Beiter Pin OUT nocks.



I leave maybe 1/10th of a mm of a gap
between the UPPER tied nocking point and the TOP of my Beiter Pin Out nock,
when the bow is at FULL DRAW,
in the DRAW BOARD.


So,
when the bow is at REST,
the upper and lower TIED nocking points LOOK really sloppy,
WAY too much room.





When you get it correct for you, Threestars...

your groups at 18 meters will tell you.




WHAT happens if the GRIV Torqueless loop is TOO LONG?

Groups get wider. Bareshafts will miss to the RIGHT for a right handed shooter...up to 30 cm to the RIGHT, in my case at 18 meters.



WHAT happens if the GRIV Torqueless loop is TOO SHORT?

Groups also get wider. Bareshafts will miss to the LEFT for a right handed shooter..up to 30 cm to the LEFT, also in my case at 18 meters.




Just adjusting the FIT of your bow,
5-6 mm LONGER or SHORTER...

caused the change in group size
from THIS to THIS.



 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
Try the Torqueless Loop
in a length that matches your current d-loop length
from the string to the apex of the d-loop.

That should get you close.

Drop the arrow rest vertical position LOWER
so you get a decent amount of SAG.



Try the thinnest blade you have, ideally the 0.008 blade.
Set blade angle to 30 degrees. This makes tuning EASIER, because tuning the vertical height of your Beiter Blade Rest becomes a FINER adjustment.

Then,
CREEP tune your EXCELLENT bow
by adjusting the control cable...half twist SHORTER or half twist longer...until you get THIS result.

SAME height for Point of IMPACT for fletched and bareshafts.




At your skill level, Threestars...

18 meters should be a BREEZE, simple to do,
once you master how to tune your Beiter Blade rest.

Then,
repeat the creep tuning test at 30 meters
and then at 50 meters.

I KNOW you can do it.

hehehehehehehehehe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,322 Posts
WHAT happens if the GRIV Torqueless loop is TOO LONG?

Groups get wider. Bareshafts will miss to the RIGHT for a right handed shooter...up to 30 cm to the RIGHT, in my case at 18 meters.

WHAT happens if the GRIV Torqueless loop is TOO SHORT?

Groups also get wider. Bareshafts will miss to the LEFT for a right handed shooter..up to 30 cm to the LEFT, also in my case at 18 meters.
So what you're doing is changing your draw length to correct bareshaft left/right. In this case by the torqueless loop length and in your other recent thread by changing buss length.

This whole fix for tail high is all about a blade rest. For a dropaway, if the arrow is set level the fix is....?? Not sure i followed your process in the other thread.
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
So what you're doing is changing your draw length to correct bareshaft left/right. In this case by the torqueless loop length and in your other recent thread by changing buss length.

This whole fix for tail high is all about a blade rest. For a dropaway, if the arrow is set level the fix is....?? Not sure i followed your process in the other thread.
Drop away is much simpler to work with.

For a drop away arrow rest,
with the arm in the FULL up position,
set the drop away arrow rest arm HEIGHT...
so that the arrow tube matches the arrow rest hole HEIGHT.

Then,
set d-loop height to whatever floats your boat.

Tail high arrow nock, is popular. This is option 1, for the d-loop position, when the bow is vertical.
Some say the arrow nock should be 1/16th HIGHER than level. Some say the arrow nock SHOULD be 1/8th higher than level.
Yup, whatever floats your boat.

LEVEL Arrow nock, is less popular. This is option 2, for d-loop position, when the bow is vertical.

Set the d-loop and then LOCK it down, don't touch the d-loop again.

Use Proper Form.
See the THOUSANDS of How's My Form threads.

Then,
just creep tune.

TAIL HIGH paper tear?
Barehshafts hitting LOWER than fletched?

SAme thing. Just different tuning methods.

FIX is the same. CONFIRM equal tiller (limb bolts same turns away from maximum).
Then,
work the control cable, for a Hoyt bow.



HALF twist MORE
HALF twist LESS

the Hybrid Cam system, control cable is VERY VERY sensitive to half twist adjustments.

GOAL?



THIS is what you are looking for.
FLETCHED arrow nailing the top of the masking tape at 20 yards (18 meters).

BARESHAFT also NAILING the top of the masking tape at 20 yards (18 meters).
I aimed for the LEFT end and the RIGHT end of the masking tape, to avoid killing nocks.

When you do this,
then,
your fletched groups look like this at 18 meters (20 yards).

 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
So what you're doing is changing your draw length to correct bareshaft left/right. In this case by the torqueless loop length and in your other recent thread by changing buss length.

This whole fix for tail high is all about a blade rest. For a dropaway, if the arrow is set level the fix is....?? Not sure i followed your process in the other thread.
IF you paper tune...(I do not)
IF you paper tune, a TAIL HIGH paper tear,
just means that the UPPER half of your bow and the LOWER half of your bow
do not get along.

No,
you do not fix this by moving the arrow rest HIGHER or LOWER.

The arrow rest is only a ski jump ramp.

The arrow rest HIGHER does NOT make the TOP half of your bow work HARDER.
The arrow rest HIGHER has NO IMPACT on making the TOP LIMB PULL HARDER.

The arrow rest LOWER, does NOT make the TOP half of your bow work LESS hard.
The arrow rest LOWER has NO IMPACT on making the TOP LIMB PULL LESS HARD.

A Paper Tear, a TAIL HIGH paper tear,
means the TOP LIMB is WORKING TOO HARD.

LEave the ski jump alone (your drop away arrow rest).

WORK,
FINE TUNE,
CUSTOM TUNE
ADJUST
the TOP LIMB, to work the TOP LIMB LESS HARD.

This means,
FORGET the ski jump ramp (arrow rest)
and
WORK the cable,
the CONTROL CABLE specifically, for a HOYT or PSE bow.



FIND The TOP of the control cable
and you have a 50/50 chance to GUESS the correct direction.

ADD a half twist...to the TOP of the control cable...1/2 twist MORE THAN your current twists.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

ADD another half twist...to the TOP of the control cable...you are at 1.0 twist MORE THAN where you started.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

ADD another half twist...to the TOP of the control cable...you are at 1.5 twists MORE THAN where you started.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

ADD another half twist...to the TOP of the control cable...you are at 2.0 twists MORE THAN where you started.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

NOW, REMOVE the 2 twists you ADDED.
YOu are back at the beginning.

REMOVE a half twist...from the TOP of the control cable...1/2 twist LESS THAN your current twists.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

REMOVE another half twist...from the TOP of the control cable...you are at 1.0 twist LESS THAN where you started.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

REMOVE another half twist...from the TOP of the control cable...you are at 1.5 twists LESS THAN where you started.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.

REMOVE another half twist...from the TOP of the control cable...you are at 2.0 twists LESS THAN where you started.
SEE if your TAIL HIGH paper tear gets better or worse.


You will QUICKLY discover
if ADDING half twists makes the TAIL HIGH PAPER TEAR better

or

you will QUICKLY discover
if REMOVING half twists makes the TAIL HIGH PAPER TEAR better...

the TOP of the control cable,
for Hoyt style bows.
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
51,555 Posts
LEVEL nock travel
means bareshafts and fletched arrows HIT at the SAME height.

SHOULDER height bullseye.
20 yards...18 meters.
Horizontal strip of masking tape.

THIS is level nock travel.
When you get THIS result.

Blade rest.
Prong rest.
Cable activated drop away.
Limb activated drop away.
Whisker biscuit.

Any kind of arrow rest you can imagine.

YOu want THIS result.

 
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
Top