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Discussion Starter #1
I've been watching the Ranch Fairy and I'm very much on board with the idea of good arrow flight for hunting. His process seems to be:
1. Paper tune and adjust arrow point weight/shafts to find best flight (look for bullet holes)
2. Insert tune
3. Nock tune -- again, for flight, not impact

Does one impact tune side by side with fletched arrows at this point? If there's a large discrepancy, what does one adjust?

Furthermore, if one has gone through this process and you're getting left/right or up/down impact with broadheads vs field points, what do you adjust? I was adjusting my rest before but it seems like having it at centershot seems to be the most recommended practice.

With trad I used to simply bareshaft and find point weight that worked, and then adjust the rest and nock height and/or field points to group tune.
 

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Step 1. Set arrow rest sideways position (centershot) with two arrows. The idea is to move arrow rest sideways,
until both arrows are parallel to each other. 2nd arrow is clamped to the riser wall. Riser is not twisted so any arrow clamped/rubber banded to the riser wall is pointing DEAD straight. WE want the arrow rest to point the loaded arrow dead straight ahead, not crooked left, not crooked right.







Fold a slip of paper that barely fits between the two arrows, near the nock end. Take same slip of paper and test fit between the two arrows near the pointy end. MOVE arrow rest sideways, until the same slip of paper fits between two arrows, at the pointy end, and at the nock end. NOW your centershot is correct. DUMP the tape measure.
 

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I've been watching the Ranch Fairy and I'm very much on board with the idea of good arrow flight for hunting. His process seems to be:
1. Paper tune and adjust arrow point weight/shafts to find best flight (look for bullet holes)
2. Insert tune
3. Nock tune -- again, for flight, not impact

Does one impact tune side by side with fletched arrows at this point? If there's a large discrepancy, what does one adjust?

Furthermore, if one has gone through this process and you're getting left/right or up/down impact with broadheads vs field points, what do you adjust? I was adjusting my rest before but it seems like having it at centershot seems to be the most recommended practice.

With trad I used to simply bareshaft and find point weight that worked, and then adjust the rest and nock height and/or field points to group tune.
So, you fire a fletched arrow with a field point and the broadhead arrow..( I recommend the bareshaft with field point, cuz it flies the same as the broadhead arrow). So, let's say you GET this result at 20 yards.



Field points hit a lousy group at 20 yards...about 2-inches and the bareshaft (no tape at the back end please)..cuz, we want CLEAN airflow at the back end of the bareshaft. Tape at the back end just screws up the aerodynamics of the bareshaft, and bareshaft tuning is all about aerodynamics. We want zero junk, zero electrical tape at the back end, cuz we want the bareshaft to fly wherever the bowstring is pushing. Nope, bowstring do not always push straight ahead, over the front stab. You can YOKE tune the yoke legs, to make the bowstring push MORE right, or make the bowstring push MORE left. YOu can cam shim the axle spacers (start with top axle) to make the bowstring push MORE right, or make the bowstring PUSH more left. This requires a bow press.

But what If I don't have a bow press? Then, you are not really tuning, and you can only shove the arrow rest crooked left or crooked right.

So, what if I don't have a bow press and ALL I have is a hex wrench, and what if the bareshaft misses 8-inches LEFT of the fletched group, when my arrow rest is pointing dead straight ahead (using the two arrow trick).
 

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Answer. YOu shove the arrow rest to STEER the fletched arrows to hit with the bareshaft...you want the bareshaft and the fletched arrows all touching. BUT, that means I miss the bullseye? THAT is what sight windage is for. When you shove the arrow rest CROOKED left, to fix that right paper tear...bareshaft missing 8-inches left, is a RIGHT nock end paper tear, then fletched groups will be tighter, cuz you are no longer fighting the direction of bowstring push.

The bareshaft has ZERO steering correction. Take 20 yards of mason line (non-stretch cord) and connect the cord from the arrow rest to the bareshaft arrow missing 8-inches left of the bullseye. THAT string shows you the direction of the bareshaft arrow flight. The string, 20 yds long shows you that YOUR bow is pushing arrows (bareshafts) crooked left.

Nope, shoving the arrow rest to the RIGHT, slamming into the riser will do NOTHING to change the direction of push from your cams. With teh current yoke tuning, with the current arrangement of axle spacers (cam shims), your bow pushes bareshafts AND broadheads CROOKED left.

BUT, the arrow rest CORRECTS arrow flight? Wrong.
The arrow rest only GUIDES the arrow in the direction of the bowstring push. So, shove the arrow rest to the LEFT,
to get the fletched field points hitting with the bareshafts.

THen, adjust sight windage to move your new TIGHTER fletched arrow group, to any spot on the target you want.
 

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Now, if you DO have a bow press...then, you can do REAL bow tuning, and you can change the direction of push
for the bareshafts, by yoke tuning or by installing custom thickness cam shims (axle spacers) or by tweaking the cables to change the brace height.

Example.



Maitland Zeus 2nd generation. Out of business bow company. No parts available. 29-inch draw length module.
One front stabilizer. Super basic setup. Aiming at the bullseye, three fletched and the one bareshaft at 20 yards, does this.



Let's skip the yoke tuning. Let's skip the cam shimming. Let's press the bow, and ONLY tweak twists in the cables to change the brace height. Since I am right handed, and the bareshaft is missing LEFT...this means the DRAW is too short. If I GROW the brace height 1/16th inch longer, the draw length is also 1/16th inch longer. Power stroke PLUS brace height PLUS 1.75 inches = draw length. Let's TEST the new bareshaft impact.









Growing brace height 1/4-inch LONGER than spec, moved the bareshaft impact to the RIGHT by 7.5-inches.
Let's see what the NEW fletched group looks like.



BEFORE



AFTER



AFTER with sight elevation and windage adjustments.

 

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So, you will find some "experts" that say draw length don't matter. They can shoot any draw length, and they get the EXACT same group size. K. Then, this is what they are doing. The trick is to swing the release elbow MORE clockwise behind your head, if experimenting with slightly longer and longer draw lengths.

 

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I've been watching the Ranch Fairy and I'm very much on board with the idea of good arrow flight for hunting. His process seems to be:
1. Paper tune and adjust arrow point weight/shafts to find best flight (look for bullet holes)
2. Insert tune
3. Nock tune -- again, for flight, not impact

Does one impact tune side by side with fletched arrows at this point? If there's a large discrepancy, what does one adjust?

Furthermore, if one has gone through this process and you're getting left/right or up/down impact with broadheads vs field points, what do you adjust? I was adjusting my rest before but it seems like having it at centershot seems to be the most recommended practice.

With trad I used to simply bareshaft and find point weight that worked, and then adjust the rest and nock height and/or field points to group tune.
TUNE for results...meaning tighter group size with fletched arrows.
Bullet holes don't mean much...it's a start, for a diagnostic tuning tool.
If you want bullet holes, then, test for bullet holes are multiple distances, but always ALWAYS follow up with fletched arrow group size.

BUT, I'ma gonna robin hood every arrow if I shoot less than 40 yds. Yeah, I hear that a lot. SHoot with ONE fletched arrow in your quiver. NO way to destroy ANYTHING, if you only shoot 1 arrow. BUT, how do I shoot GROUPS with only 1 arrow? Pin a sheet of cardboard, to the target, and fire your ONE arrow. Then, put down your bow, and pull out the arrow. Walk back to the shooting line and fire again. Repeat for 30 shots.



27/64ths diameter GoldTip Triple Arrow. Fletched. Arrow group size is also 27/64ths. ONE arrow diameter group size. NOW if you can fire your ONE fletched arrow 21 shots in a row, in the SAME hole...I would say NOW....you are tuned.

BUT. does this guy have a bullet hole or not? Don't know and don't care.
BUT, does this guy have a high left or a high right paper tear? I heard on the internet, that a slight high tear is more better than a bullet hole? Don't know and really don't care about high or low tears, about bullet holes or not.

If you can put one fletched arrow in the same hole 20 yards away, for 20 shots in a row....you are good.
NOW go test your broadhead arrows vs field point arrows.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for the thorough response.

So essentially, if I understand correctly, the arrow tuning helps you find the appropriate setup for the particular bow and helps achieve optimal arrow flight given the direction of push and force of the bow itself (along with overall setup like how the rest is setup, etc) to reduce wasted energy, and bow tuning gets the bow launching the arrow in the correct direction (assuming spine is correct)?

If one uses the non-bow press method and just fudges tuning via moving the arrow rest, does arrow flight stability suffer as a result? Would you re-asses point weight and bareshaft nock direction or not bother?
 

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Now, if you DO have a bow press...then, you can do REAL bow tuning, and you can change the direction of push
for the bareshafts, by yoke tuning or by installing custom thickness cam shims (axle spacers) or by tweaking the cables to change the brace height.

Example.



Maitland Zeus 2nd generation. Out of business bow company. No parts available. 29-inch draw length module.
One front stabilizer. Super basic setup. Aiming at the bullseye, three fletched and the one bareshaft at 20 yards, does this.



Let's skip the yoke tuning. Let's skip the cam shimming. Let's press the bow, and ONLY tweak twists in the cables to change the brace height. Since I am right handed, and the bareshaft is missing LEFT...this means the DRAW is too short. If I GROW the brace height 1/16th inch longer, the draw length is also 1/16th inch longer. Power stroke PLUS brace height PLUS 1.75 inches = draw length. Let's TEST the new bareshaft impact.






Growing brace height 1/4-inch LONGER than spec, moved the bareshaft impact to the RIGHT by 7.5-inches.
Let's see what the NEW fletched group looks like.



BEFORE



AFTER



AFTER with sight elevation and windage adjustments.

When would you yoke tune rather than shortening/lengthening draw length?
 

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First thing to do is put rest at center shot where it’s called for. If it’s 13/16” , then set it there and LEAVE it. Yoke tune, or shim cams until you get a bullet hole in paper at 3’ and STOP. Shoot a bareshaft at 10 yards. Get it hitting with nock straight. Set your sight to that spot and then go to 20 yards. If it hits spot with nock straight, put a broadhead on and you want have to do much tweaking to get broad heads and field points hitting together. And yes I’m one of those EXPERTS , that can shoot a bareshaft at 20 yards with draw length from 26” to 28” and slap shafts together. As long as you can keep your elbow in line with the arrow, the arrow will hit where it should. That’s NOT saying draw length doesn’t matter. Every one has a precise draw length that gives the best hold and pin float. It when I am tuning my arrows and a bareshaft hits 3” left , I’m not changing my draw length. I’m a seasoned enough and well enough shooter to know exactly what my draw length is, and its not changing because of a bareshaft. My power stroke not inline with center shot is the trouble. That’s why I say set the center shot and leave it. Don’t run the rest back and forth across the bow chasing good arrow flight. A bow is designed for the arrow to shoot through the center, that’s why they call it “Center shot “. You can move rest way out and have arrow laying sideways on the shelve and get a perfect bullet hole and bareshaft flight. Bow will shoot same speed through a Chrono and score just as good. But most don’t perfer to do that. You can until you can get to a press and set it correctly. Also changing point weight to “ look” for bullet holes might work for someone that doesn’t understand tuning and spine. But again, my target bow set at 52# for indoors will shoot bullet holes from a 500 spine to a steel rod stiff 30x 150 spine arrow. I shoot the 150 spine bareshafts at 20 yards and 6 arrow groups touching. Tuning a bow and arrow is easy. It’s not a rocket science or take a magic touch and little secrets like some want to make it. Put rest in center and move string to get in line with it , whether yokes or shims or top hats and look at an arrow chart and pick the spine you need and it will tune and hit the same hole if you do your part and hold the pin on it.
 

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When would you yoke tune rather than shortening/lengthening draw length?
Theres gotta be a balance IMO. You don’t want to cover up bow issues with form and vice versa. I think knowing where the issue lies (form or bow) just comes with lots of experience in both areas. There will be a time when the draw length or loop length change becomes an issue with your hold on target and pin float etc... again I think it comes with time in the saddle when you’ve logged 100s of hours studying your float with slight form changes you’ll understand where the changes need to be made. And if ones not to the point of understanding and knowing of those changes I don’t think bareshaft tuning is where they should be headed. It takes lots of skill and understanding to get bareshafts flying at 20 plus yards daily. There so many things that can change the poi. I’ve had numerous arrows that would shoot bareshafts off line and a simple change of the nock in the same orientation corrected that specific arrow. I’ve had arrows where I could shoot the bareshaft label up spin the nock 180 degrees so the label is STILL up and get a tremendous change. It can be a finicky process without the understanding of where the actual issue lies.
 

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When would you yoke tune rather than shortening/lengthening draw length?
For me it was when I had a consistent anchor that I didnt feel like I was fighting (too short) or stretching (too long) to reach. Consistency is the key. From there I tuned the bow. With time and experience you may well want or need to tweak DL slightly but this should get you started. As Nuts and Bolts says you tune for results.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
First thing to do is put rest at center shot where it’s called for. If it’s 13/16” , then set it there and LEAVE it. Yoke tune, or shim cams until you get a bullet hole in paper at 3’ and STOP. Shoot a bareshaft at 10 yards. Get it hitting with nock straight. Set your sight to that spot and then go to 20 yards. If it hits spot with nock straight, put a broadhead on and you want have to do much tweaking to get broad heads and field points hitting together. And yes I’m one of those EXPERTS , that can shoot a bareshaft at 20 yards with draw length from 26” to 28” and slap shafts together. As long as you can keep your elbow in line with the arrow, the arrow will hit where it should. That’s NOT saying draw length doesn’t matter. Every one has a precise draw length that gives the best hold and pin float. It when I am tuning my arrows and a bareshaft hits 3” left , I’m not changing my draw length. I’m a seasoned enough and well enough shooter to know exactly what my draw length is, and its not changing because of a bareshaft. My power stroke not inline with center shot is the trouble. That’s why I say set the center shot and leave it. Don’t run the rest back and forth across the bow chasing good arrow flight. A bow is designed for the arrow to shoot through the center, that’s why they call it “Center shot “. You can move rest way out and have arrow laying sideways on the shelve and get a perfect bullet hole and bareshaft flight. Bow will shoot same speed through a Chrono and score just as good. But most don’t perfer to do that. You can until you can get to a press and set it correctly. Also changing point weight to “ look” for bullet holes might work for someone that doesn’t understand tuning and spine. But again, my target bow set at 52# for indoors will shoot bullet holes from a 500 spine to a steel rod stiff 30x 150 spine arrow. I shoot the 150 spine bareshafts at 20 yards and 6 arrow groups touching. Tuning a bow and arrow is easy. It’s not a rocket science or take a magic touch and little secrets like some want to make it. Put rest in center and move string to get in line with it , whether yokes or shims or top hats and look at an arrow chart and pick the spine you need and it will tune and hit the same hole if you do your part and hold the pin on it.
Good points. A few thoughts:
-I'm with you on setting the bow properly. I'm frustrated that the archery shop didn't paper tune when I asked them to set up my bow, nor did they mention it. They also didn't mention cam shimming or yoke tuning, nor fine tuning with twists. Archery shop is at least an hour away and has hours that are difficult to get in, and hunting season is ticking away, which is why I'm looking to see if I can do this some other way. They did set the timing properly and laser leveled the rest.

-That said, dynamic arrow spine still matters for arrow flight, hence vastly different results with different spines, point weights, FOC, etc. Longbows are evidence of this, since you primarily tune the arrow and the bow itself is largely taken out of the equation. How else does one "get it to hit nock straight" after doing the bow tuning?

-Whether or not bullet holes happen on paper doesn't matter as much to me (in my current understanding) as getting bareshafts to fly straight without slapping the target and fishtailing. In my mind, going from "gross adjustments" to specific adjustments makes sense. Fit bow to shooter, tune bow to shooter, tune arrow to bow via spine, then dynamic spine via point weights, then microtune with nock tuning and the like.

What I'm somewhat confused by, however: doesn't changing the direction the rest is pointing essentially affect what arrow spine is necessary in the way that longbow risers work? I.e. the further you get out from center shot, the stiffer your arrow will show?

Regardless, since I don't currently have access to a bow press (and I doubt Cabelas knows how to set up and paper tune and compound bow), I'm wondering if I can circumvent this well enough to be hunting ready for 15m and under simply by adjusting my rest and/or my arrow's dynamic spine.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I think I'm better wrapping my head around this now. Let me know if I'm wrong here, but in an ideal scenario:
1. Set up bow correctly
2. Tune bow to shooter via cam shimming, etc.
3. Paper tune at very short range to determine if setup is correct with approximately spined arrow
Then arrow tune
4. Paper tune at 5y to test different shafts/points, or simply bareshaft tune at 10y and further
5. Narrow in and insert tune, nock tune, etc.

Obviously adjusting bow if necessary, but initial bow setup being the "gross adjustment" and arrow tuning being a fine tuning adjustment.

Trad is different because you mostly skip step 1-3.

Is that somewhat on?
 

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It takes lots of skill and understanding to get bare shafts flying at 20 plus yards daily.
Couldn't be said better.............
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Answer. YOu shove the arrow rest to STEER the fletched arrows to hit with the bareshaft...you want the bareshaft and the fletched arrows all touching. BUT, that means I miss the bullseye? THAT is what sight windage is for. When you shove the arrow rest CROOKED left, to fix that right paper tear...bareshaft missing 8-inches left, is a RIGHT nock end paper tear, then fletched groups will be tighter, cuz you are no longer fighting the direction of bowstring push.

The bareshaft has ZERO steering correction. Take 20 yards of mason line (non-stretch cord) and connect the cord from the arrow rest to the bareshaft arrow missing 8-inches left of the bullseye. THAT string shows you the direction of the bareshaft arrow flight. The string, 20 yds long shows you that YOUR bow is pushing arrows (bareshafts) crooked left.

Nope, shoving the arrow rest to the RIGHT, slamming into the riser will do NOTHING to change the direction of push from your cams. With teh current yoke tuning, with the current arrangement of axle spacers (cam shims), your bow pushes bareshafts AND broadheads CROOKED left.

BUT, the arrow rest CORRECTS arrow flight? Wrong.
The arrow rest only GUIDES the arrow in the direction of the bowstring push. So, shove the arrow rest to the LEFT,
to get the fletched field points hitting with the bareshafts.

THen, adjust sight windage to move your new TIGHTER fletched arrow group, to any spot on the target you want.
Ah, this makes sense. Took a bit of visualizing but I think I'm getting it. Two questions:

1. So essentially, have a far right impact means there's a problem with the bow setup and/or arrow spine and it's essentially not fixable via rest movement since you're moving it further "in" than centershot? Whereas left shooting means moving the rest is simply following the direction of the cam pull (that should ideally be fixed via bow tuning but can be fudged via crooked rest)?

2. At what stage does one figure out how much to dial in arrow spine to the bow? Do you shoot i.e. a fletched and a bareshaft of a number of different point weights, find the one that impacts closest and/or flies best, and then adjust the rest (in the "crooked" method)?
 

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Good points. A few thoughts:
-I'm with you on setting the bow properly. I'm frustrated that the archery shop didn't paper tune when I asked them to set up my bow, nor did they mention it. They also didn't mention cam shimming or yoke tuning, nor fine tuning with twists. Archery shop is at least an hour away and has hours that are difficult to get in, and hunting season is ticking away, which is why I'm looking to see if I can do this some other way. They did set the timing properly and laser leveled the rest.

-That said, dynamic arrow spine still matters for arrow flight, hence vastly different results with different spines, point weights, FOC, etc. Longbows are evidence of this, since you primarily tune the arrow and the bow itself is largely taken out of the equation. How else does one "get it to hit nock straight" after doing the bow tuning?

-Whether or not bullet holes happen on paper doesn't matter as much to me (in my current understanding) as getting bareshafts to fly straight without slapping the target and fishtailing. In my mind, going from "gross adjustments" to specific adjustments makes sense. Fit bow to shooter, tune bow to shooter, tune arrow to bow via spine, then dynamic spine via point weights, then microtune with nock tuning and the like.

What I'm somewhat confused by, however: doesn't changing the direction the rest is pointing essentially affect what arrow spine is necessary in the way that longbow risers work? I.e. the further you get out from center shot, the stiffer your arrow will show?

Regardless, since I don't currently have access to a bow press (and I doubt Cabelas knows how to set up and paper tune and compound bow), I'm wondering if I can circumvent this well enough to be hunting ready for 15m and under simply by adjusting my rest and/or my arrow's dynamic spine.
Live and learn. I worked at and managed a archery shop and I wouldn't paper tune for anyone. Okay, I'd have them shoot and help adjust or correct them in grip, form or whatever. If didn't listen I'd leave them. Dang high rate of shooters can't paper tune because of grip, form or whatever. They are even worse bare shafting at 20 yards.

Shimming, yoke tuning and whatever. Did you ask? They can't read minds. And then you should be doing shooting and adjusted and shimming by your results. By and large most oriented in archery do their own work.

Spine of arrow should have come at purchase and knowing your draw and draw length. Correct spine, insert, 100 gr point and slap whatever vanes on. Then go shoot..........

Getting the nock straight is part of the tuning.........

You can paper tune to get that "bullet hole" and be dang close to tuned. See pics.

I think you're doing too much reading. Trash that and go by nuts&bolts has given. He won't lead you astray. You got to read what puts forth and follow what he puts forth........

Read paper from right to left
3 on right - 6,8, and 10 feet. Too low, adjusted. Yes, shooting for the tubing hole in the foam.
2 in middle - 6 and 10 feet. Too high, adjusted.
2 holes far left are bullet holes. I then went outside. Several pics not shown. Once I knew how the arrows were hitting I used just a bare shaft and finished with at 20 yards with both fletched and bare shaft.

Want a challenge? Try shooting in the wind and using a hinge........

bare shaft ttuning nuts&bolts1 002-1.jpg
bare shaft tuning - nuts&bolts 006-1.jpg
bare shaft tuning - nuts&bolts 009-1.jpg
bare shafting in the wind 001-1-1.jpg
 
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