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Tyler
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I posted awhile back about problems getting arrows to fly out of my sammick phantom.
Well I got arrows flying down the line now consistently and grouping good.The only issue I still have is the bareshafts need to have 85 grains in them and the fletched are grouping best with 125 grains.What am I not doing right to get these point weights to match up? When I say they are grouping I can put 2 out of 3 arrows in a 1 1/2 square at 30 yds consistently,and bareshafts are pretty close to the same if I do my part.What am I not doing right here?
 

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Are you using a bare shafting protocol fairly identical to this one?: http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html

The fletched and bare shots are made with identically constructed shafts and point weights, and the positions of each group of fletched and bare shafts in the target are compared, followed by an equal modification of all shafts, or a single modification to the bow itself (as per his protocol) in order to bring the groupings closer together until satisfied.

An excerpt from the instructions I linked you to: "Any changes you make to the bare shafts, make the same changes to the fletched shafts! The bare and fletched shafts must be identical."

Hope this helps.
 

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Tyler
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes same arrow shaft and length.Just different point weight.If I shoot the bareshaft with 85 grains it's on the line .If I shoot a fletched arrow with same point weight it's stiff and to the left.
Then if I shoot a fletched arrow with 125 grains it's on the line and bareshaft with same weight is right and weak
 

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W,

The point weights must be identical during the bare shaft and fletched comparisons. The object is to see how identical arrows form their different groupings ... although one of the groupings will be bare - and the other will be fletched.

For example, let's say you shoot 125 grain points on both the bare and fletched shafts.

During bare shaft tuning, the fletched arrow is considered "the truth" ... not the bare shaft. So all your comparisons of weak or stiff are based upon the fletched being "true" and the bare showing you what is needed to modify that "truth". The fletched arrows must be accurately centered on the target within your norm. The bare should be the variable that is used to modify the tuning. If your fletched arrows aren't hitting in a central place to begin with, either the shafts or your technique may be off enough to render bare shaft tuning impossible. Technique can give deceptive tuning patterns on the target, so do be aware of this.

Let's say the fletched are grouping in the middle, yet the bares are grouping to the right (assuming a RH archer). The fletching has corrected flight, yet the bare has not. Therefore, the observation on this example would be that the shafts are a bit weak (because the uncorrected bares have landed to the right of the fletched ones).

If using point weight only to make a correction, you would need to "stiffen" the dynamic spine of all the arrows in the test by reducing the point weight on all the arrows in the test ... say to 100 grains ... to make all shafts behave stiffer in flight. Then you would repeat the bare vs. fletched groupings several more times to see if the bares begin to group closer to the fletched. (You can do the same by shortening the lengths of all your shafts a very small amount if you don't want to change point weight.)

Let's say the bares now still group just a hair to the right and you want to nail it. Drop the point weight on all the arrows again ... say to 75 grains. Repeat the bare vs. fletched groupings. If the bare and fletched arrows are all now grouping in one spot, you have achieved your tuning. (You could do the same by shortening all the shafts another hair.)

You can also adjust the bow to achieve similar results by modifying the side plate offset (one of several possibilities). This is a fast, simple, and single step that can bring close groupings together without modifying the shafts.

If you read the link I provided with a very keen and slow eye ... many times ... and proceed exactly in the manner he describes, the mystery of it all will disappear and start to make absolute sense.

You may even wish to write down in your own hand the key steps to perform in the order that he advises as a handy reference absent the rest of the wording (or print it out and yellow-highlight the key steps).

You can often get the same fletched and bare shafts into one group using different point weights. However, this is not the bare shafting protocol. You want to get identically constructed shafts and point weights (with fletching only being the variable) to strike within the same group. This is how the fletched arrow becomes tuned to behave as perfectly as a bare shaft, with only the addition of fletching to help steer and forgive the existing perfection more accurately into the mark.

During the bare shafting processes, you should shoot all arrows in the same fashion, without "concentrating harder" or "really focusing" on the bare shaft shots you make. You want the "constant" of your technique present when shooting both the bares and fletched into the target, one after another within a single end, in order to get an accurate read on the groupings and what they mean.

And, as he mentions, you may find that you can't get the bares and fletched to tune, at which point you need to explore a different spine of shaft altogether.

You'll get it. It's a bit frustrating at first, yet if you absolutely nail his protocol to the letter, you'll quickly start observing the processes involved and be able to adjust your arrows more efficiently.

One rule of thumb that can prevent a lot of hair pulling: one can only bare shaft test as accurately as one can shoot. So, if during your regular shooting you are able to average a 20 yard group within, say, a one-foot circle, then you will use that as the size group you want the bare shafting processes to achieve. If you are within a two-foot circle at 20 yards, the bare shafting processes will be based on that size of a group. If you are within a six inch circle at 20 yards, then that smaller area will be what your bare shafting processes will be based upon.

Hang in there, and I hope some of this clarifies things a bit.
 

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Tyler
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thin Man

Thanks for taking the time write that.It is very informative and helpful,and much appreciated
 

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Yes basically its as Thin man sed.

Bareshaft tuning is all about comparing the points of impact of bare vs fletched. Using arrows that are the same except for for the presence or absence of fletching, you want the 2 points of impact to coincide.

Between me and him though I always considered the bare shaft to be the "truth". It indicates what the arrow is trying to do with correction from fletching. So for example even if the fletched arrow goes straight down the line, but the bare shaft hits to the right, assuming RH shooter, I then make corrections to deal with a weak arrow. I just keep working with that approach, and moving farther and farther from the target until I can get both bare and fletched hitting the point of impact at about 40 yards. (Up to you if you want to go to such a distance)

One may ask if the fletched arrow is already going right down the the line, why bother with any more tuning? Up to you. Its just that if I get both bare and fletched hitting the same then I know that I have arrows that are flying as straight as possible with the fletch having to do the keast work to correct flight. Important for target in that drag is reduced and consistency in arrow flight is improved, thereby improving cast. Its important for hunting in that an arrow that strikes the animal squarely will have better penetration.
 

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wabbit -

Short answer(s) - the fletched arrow are giving you false readings.

Either the bare shafts are "tuned" boarder line stiff and adding 10 grains of feather to the tail is throwing them too far into the stiff range*, OR the bare shafts are "tuned" boarder line stiff and the tail (feathers) are striking the riser, OR a little of both.

10 grain of weight at the tail = about 20 grains of weight up front, just in the opposite direction, spine wise.

Finally, don't know how/how well you shoot and more importantly how consistent your results are.

Viper1 out.
 

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Bender,

I agree with your bare shaft "truth". I work it backwards in conversation since most bare shaft tutorials use diagrams showing the fletched "in the middle" and then suggest modifications based upon observation of the bare's groupings about that middle. That's why I mentioned that we're trying to "modify the truth" when following such a diagram's suggestions.

Once a person's head is wrapped around "the all" of this tuning process and has some experience with it, one can then work both backwards and forwards in their mind's-eye with the results they are seeing in the target, and read fluently from all relative locations.

Thank you for the clarification ... or should I say within my own perceptual vernacular ... thanks for the clarification to you.
 

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All very good advise, but for a little more in depth advise go to www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html and click on 'download printable version'. That is the whole article and the best I've ever seen.

"One may ask if the fletched arrow is already going right down the line, why bother with any more tuning?" The real answer to this question is, if your bare and fletched arrow are not impacting in the same place you're not tuned as well as can be. Have you ever had an arrow flying true and then put on a broadhead of the same weight point and its flight was terrible? Happens all the time. In fact, the article above, suggest to forget about bare shaft PLANING and go straight to broadhead planing.

Most of us will never shoot consistently enough to notice the 10 grains Viper mentions. That 10 grains is take out of the equation with BH planing.

Bowmania
 

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Thin Man, I tend to refer to the fletched as the "standard", the truth if you will. Yes, in the end the goal is to get both "acting" the same, but since we tend to do that by judging the amount the bare are "out" from the fetched group, "true" flight might be the bare shaft, but that does not mean such is "correct" flight; therefore, we look back at the "corrected" flight of a fletched arrow as the truth, or standard.
 

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Todd -

Maybe, maybe not. That added10 grains has the same effect as removing 20 grains up front.
You're right that with fletched arrows, most people here will never see the difference.
With bare shafts, we're looking at a 2# difference in spine, that's usually enough to see, if the shooter is consistent.
Compound that with my suggestion that the arrows may actually be slightly stiff, but tuned to bare shaft correctly.
There the two pounds of spine will not only show a difference, but the feathers may now be hitting the riser and the effect is worsened.

Is that what's going no?
I have no idea.

The other thing I don't think was mentioned was nock kick-out.
If the bare shafts and fletched arrows are impacting to suggest a stiff, correct or weak arrow, and the nock kick-out doesn't confirm that, then user error (or some sort) has to be suspected.

The problem with tuning threads is that we have no idea what the shooter is doing. so these are only generalities.

Viper1 out.
 

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Tyler
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Very good points guys
I'll answer a couple of the questions

1) Viper- form is getting pretty solid, and my groups are tight.with the bareshafts I can pound out a consistent hole in the target.

2) I know to have these arrows tuned and matched to the bow that they need to group with each other.With my compound I don't quit tuning till it don't matter if I'm shooting a fletched or bareshaft that they will group together out to 35-40 yds.

I will not quit till I get this perfectly tuned!!!
 

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Yes, trying to tune over the Net is pretty much futile, except in general analysis of a problem. As per what I think Viper is stating, and Thin Man as well as to a standard, in a sense of generality, if your fletched impact is sensitive enough at close range that it's becoming part of the impact analysis as well, there's more to the issue.
 

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The tuning process can be frustrating at time and some of us here get way to TECHNICAL. Two out of three at 30 yards in a 1 1/2" square is way above average. if they are coming out good be happy and go shoot
I posted awhile back about problems getting arrows to fly out of my sammick phantom.
Well I got arrows flying down the line now consistently and grouping good.The only issue I still have is the bareshafts need to have 85 grains in them and the fletched are grouping best with 125 grains.What am I not doing right to get these point weights to match up? When I say they are grouping I can put 2 out of 3 arrows in a 1 1/2 square at 30 yds consistently,and bareshafts are pretty close to the same if I do my part.What am I not doing right here?
 

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Sanford,

Thanks ... "standard" rather than "truth" is certainly more apt. I lean towards epic analogy, and perhaps "the truth" should be reserved for ethical inquiry, rather than stick 'n' string bar-shaftin'.

The mind must often slog through and comprehend the complex in order to achieve its reduction to simplicity. Presenting the complex via the kinder is a tremendous challenge possessing its own complexity.

Ya gotta read between the atoms when it's as clear as mud ... and even then, them atoms is wiggly as the dickens.
 

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Thin, I try to work through standard failure analysis on tunes. There is no real standard or truth in the end, as they are both, fletched and bare, one and the same shaft but for the fletch. They are both moving targets, but since making normal changes has little to no effect on the impact of the fletch if all is within correct parameters to begin work with (why it's the standard to begin with), if I'm chasing fletch impact, then we have a real "problem", forget a real "truth" or "standard".

Then, as Gary points out above, what's the numbers by which "out" is judged? There might not even be a problem to begin with. Hard to say without being there.
 
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