It depends on your bow and its cam system which way is better , Advanced top cam is more typical. It means one cam is hitting the Wall a smidge before the other cam. I don't see it all that confusing

 

Due to the way I tune, I only say "delay" the cam, because typically when one stop is hitting first I twist that cable to "delay" it so it hits with the other one.

Both perfect examples of why I started this topic. "Advanced" on the draw cycle?, or "Advanced" on shot cycle? because if one of the cams is "advanced" to hit the stops first on the draw cycle, then it's also "delayed" and comes off the stops last during the shot cycle.

 

Due to the way I tune, I only say "delay" the cam, because typically when one stop is hitting first I twist that cable to "delay" it so it hits with the other one.

 

Get the sync dead nuts, then advance or ****** timing for your personal preference. Just make sure the sync is dead nuts after you advance or ****** the timing.

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You make a real valid point and I've never thought of it that way!! Makes me rethink my tuning philosophy. I like the feel of the top cam slightly ahead during draw with a hybrid system, but that would make the top cam lag on release. Vertical nock travel would be biased DOWN since the bottom cam starts rotating first on release. However, in my tuning I have seen where advancing the bottom cam during draw will clean up a nock high tear! Hmmmmmmmmm.......things to ponder.

NC

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I don't agree with what you're saying because what you're actually talking about is cam sync, and not cam timing.


That said. Cams have to go both ways...draw and release. So neither is technically right over the other. I go with what the industry pretty much uses, and that's during the draw cycle. So top cam hitting first would be advanced ahead of the bottom.

 

It's a good valid point, but some where we have to draw the line on terminology and use the most common accepted terminology since we are practicing communication and not taking science tests. And next your going to tell us the front of the riser is the side facing us and the back faces away. Ahhh this archery stuff....... Why cant it be Simple..

 

It's a good valid point, but some where we have to draw the line on terminology and use the most common accepted terminology since we are practicing communication and not taking science tests....

My question is simply whether "advanced" or "ahead" or "fast" is typically a description of the cam timing during the draw cycle, or during the shot cycle... and whether it's as confusing and contradictory to others as it is to me. As far as I know, I've never seen any documentation that says "advancing" the top cam mean setting it so the stops hit first. (or vice versa) so how is someone to know whether "advancing" the top cam is supposed to know whether that means setting that cam to be ahead during the draw cycle, or ahead in the shot cycle, because it cannot be "advanced" for both. Personally, I don't care about timing during the draw cycle because it doesn't affect anything, all you're doing is slowly building energy in the bow/cams/limbs. What does matter, as it pertains to accuracy and arrow flight is how the cams interact with each other during the several milliseconds when they are rotating back to brace and accelerating the arrow. That's where being "even" or "ahead" or "advanced" is actually going to make a difference.

Again, my question is not about the benefits of having the timing even, or slight mis-timed one way or another, it's about logical terminology to describe the orientation of the cams when the timing is not "even"

 

I would have to say that everyone I have ever talked to that works on bows would not be confessed and if i told 100 people advance the top cam I would have 100 bows with the top stop hitting first, and the people on your level would ask for clarification before they did anything. Now if I ask 100 people to point to the front of the riser I would guess 75 would get that wrong according to the technically accepted terms. You could also look at the cam situation like this when the string is released during the shot the cams will move at the same time and come to rest at the same time therefore there technically is no advance or ******ation. Alright that is all I have before I enter Analysis Paralysis.

 

Terminology is a big thing, It teach junior high math and I use a lot of common sense and layman terms to get the concepts across to kids, every year kids in high school will come back to me needing help with the new math they are seeing and they are totally lost. I show them how to do the stuff and they find out that it is the exact same stinking math we were doing in 8th grade but the high school teachers used the very technical terms and phrases and this makes it totally impossible to realize it is the same thing.

I try and talk to the high school teachers about it but that is a lost cause, some people get a orgasm over sounding intelligent and using complicated sounding words because it makes them sound smart.

In our archery world we have the same problem, guys want to sound really smart and drop big terms and phrases so they fit in when having conversations about tuning or shooting etc. In the end it really helps if everyone is on the same page for conversations to flow smoothly so little conversations like this one never hurt.

 

My top cam is a little slow.

 

I do. I've tuned tons of bows and still don't 100% understand when people talk about "advancing" a cam because of exactly what you wrote. Advancing it at brace or during the shot? Which way is advanced? Heck if I know. I just do like you and say "hit first" or a certain distance ahead of the other etc. It's like trying to convey the correct way to serve a bow string through text. It's just easier to see it and do it.

 

I've never been able to keep that straight either. OTOH, the only bow I have that requires significant detiming is my finger bow, so I haven't put any effort into figuring it out. Most modern bows have cam systems that normally don't require detiming anyway. Any asymmetry in the system is already compensated for (Prime for example makes the top cam slightly bigger then the bottom one on one of their models) and all that's needed is just aligning timing marks at brace and stops hitting the same time at full draw.

My finger bows, OTOH, have perfectly round wheels exactly the same size top and bottom, but the knocking point is approx. 3" above the center of the main string. So to get it to shoot right with a release aid, the bottom wheel has to be what I call "advanced" significantly. Meaning, at full draw, the cable is fully seated in the mod in the top wheel, but the bottom wheel is "behind", with the bottom cable visibly not yet hitting the mod. So going in the other direction - when the bow is discharging - I think of the bottom wheel as "advanced" over the top one. Basically, it's just a form of tillering, another requirement that's all but disappeared in modern designs. And is only needed with prehistoric technology like what I shoot.

Reason being, tillering a bow like that that is nasty because a) it smooshes out the back wall even more than it already is, b) makes shaft/spine selection an absolute nightmare and c) don't even think about the creep tune, which requires absolute consistency in the "preload" at full draw to keep from slinging the shaft knock-high on a too-aggressive pull through the shot.

But that bow is a special case of being used for a purpose for which it was not designed (release aid with a d-loop).

So what I do is more or less just don't think about it. On my modern bows I just set the timing marks right over the cables and that's it. I haven't had to do anything else on my PSE's anyway.....

lee.

 

I creep tune my competition bows out of a hooter shooter so that they will hit the same hole at 20 yards if I am creeped forward a little off the stops or lightly touching or pulled hard into them. with my bowtech specialist it would help by 3/4 inch high and low hits. I shot a little pse evolve this winter for a few months and it started out perfect with the cable stops hitting at the same time but after a couple months the string set had changed and they were not hitting the same anymore, it had a little over 1/8 inch gap between one of the cable stops. I took it to the hooter shooter expecting to need to sync it perfect and then creep tune it but surprisingly it shot the same hole accuracy with that 1/8 inch gap so I just left it alone. I hated the little evolve 35 but the dang thing sure didn't care if it was synced and didn't care if you were pulling hard or creeping either.

 

yeah my shootdown is like that. Though I run the stops completely identical on it, it's the most rock-solid tuning bow I've ever had. I can put any of my shafts in it that I want and they all tune identically. The up/down doesn't change at all no matter how hard or light I am against the wall.

Sure wish my wheel bow was like that.....

lee.

 

It is a good point. The work of the cam doesn't start until the string is released. That's when sync matters. Cable stop bows will have the cams hit the cables at the same time or one cam timed to hit before the other on a draw board at close to full draw. Limb stop bows can be set where the stops hit the limbs evenly with either the cams in perfect sync or not (one ahead or behind in rotation). I've always thought of it in terms of during the draw or checked on a draw board. I'll probably drop using those terms because it's way easier to describe it as one cam hitting its stop before the other at full draw draw.

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Why do you guys keep calling the Eccentrically Axled distorted wheels "Cams?" You are confusing me! :set1_rolf2:

 

The "best" timing is tricky. Buy 10 of the same bow and each will tweak a bit differently.

 

For both my bows - and especially the FT - I have the top cam advanced about slightly less than a credit card width - I find this gives the best efficiency and shot feel. With the Evolve twin cam system - the cams need to be dead on with each other - depends which cam system you have - as they all have their sweet spots...