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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
 

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Usually what you are describing is a spine issue. It sounds like the back of the arrow is hitting the riser as it passes. Plus I don't know why you don't cant the bow. I think if you had a plunger you could get away with a straight bow but most you need to cant them. Shoot a heavier point see what happens. Cant the bow more. Also, it sounds like your plucking the string. Deep hook that string. Put the string all the way in the grooves of your fingers don't use fingertips.

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Also you are holding the bow like a compound. You can keep the angle of your hand but put the bow completely in your hand. This will give it natural cant. There is no relaxing in trad shooting it's always hard tight muscles.

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Okay, first I'll preface with I'm fairly new to the recurve scene, and while I've done a lot of reading up on it I hope either someone more knowledgeable like Nuts&Bolts chimes in, or PM him with your specs and issues; one of the great resources on this site.

Now, since you're drawing 27", it is a reasonable guess you are pulling closer to 26lbs on this new bow; as you probably know the more you draw back the more draw weight you get, and many [most???] limb poundages are rated at 28" of draw... There are some Asain companies who do it differently, but this information should also be on your limb sticker- might say something like '28# at 28" '

If this is the case, my next guess is your arrows are over stiff for your set up; At a higher "On the Fingers" [OTF] weight and longer draw and longer shafts with nearly the same point weight I use shafts of a couple spines weaker than your .600s. Recurve set ups are sensetive to spine deflections, and a shaft that is too stiff will have more difficulty clearing the riser; check out some YouTube vids on this and how the proper shaft will bend around the riser.

Side note, you can't rely on what you see during flight... It's rare, as in fighter pilot rare, you can visually process what an arrow is actually doing in flight, and if you ere able to process even part of it, the fact the shaft has to bend so much to launch correctly it wouldn't look "perfect" anyway.

Back to the bow- I'll bet that, if you took two arrows and stripped the feathers [bare shafts], and tried to group them with your fletched shafts, they would end up way [WAY WAY] left; another indication of a shaft that is too stiff.

As for arrow point slightly left of string, and there are different schools of thought on this but the general consensus is, for a right hand shooter you want the point slightly left of the stringbecause you cannot release the string "through" your fingers, it rolls off, moving the string left as you release.

More important than tune is form and consistency; even a poorly tuned bow will shoot good groups, maybe not the best groups, but good ones, if shot consistently. If your arrows are all over the place, good chance something wonky about the shot. Impact angles could also be influenced by the type of target, so that information would be helpful as well, but guessing this isn't the primary, or even a remotely significant, problem.

Like I said, reach out to N&B or hopefully he comes across this thread and can guide farther, I've about exhausted my limits of pretending to know what I know.
 

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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
27-inch RECURVE draw length.

Find a spring scale, and measure the POUNDS on the string, when the hook of the RECURVE spring scale touches the corner of your mouth.
So, I'm figuring you have no idea what the POUNDS on your fingers are, when the nock is at the corner of your mouth. OK.

Nope, the "draw weight" is not 28 pounds. The weight rating on your medium ILF limbs are rated at 28 pounds. That does not mean you have 28 pounds on YOUR FINGERS, when YOUR FINGERS are at your recurve anchor.

Next. The medium ILF limbs will ONLY deliver 28#, at a RECURVE draw length of 28-inches, and ONLY when using a 25-inch riser. You have a 21" riser, so the limb WEIGHT ratings goes through the roof (meaning much higher). So, a 23-inch riser, with 28 pound rated ILF limbs, will deliver 30 pound at 28-inches of draw length. So, a 21-inch riser, with 28# rated ILF limbs, will now deliver 32 pound at 28-inches of RECURVE draw length.

So, your 28 pound limbs, for a 25-inch riser, will deliver 30 pounds at 27-inches of RECURVE draw length.
So, let's ASSUME you actually have 30# at your "also assumed" 27-inches of RECURVE draw length. I'm gonna figure you used a math formula to CALCULATE that your RECURVE draw length is 27-inches. In all reality...meaning for ALL of my recurve students, the newbie recurve students have not developed a SOLID repeatable form, and 99.99999 percent all under-draw, due to strength issues, fatigue issues, and poor recurve form (mis-alignment). So, in actual fact, since you have not MEASURED the pounds on your fingers, since you do not own a recurve spring scale....then, your POUNDS on the fingers are probably LESS than 30 pounds OTF.

So, whatever "pro" shop sold you 600 spine arrows, whoever sold you 28 pound limbs (ILF mediums) to use with a SUPER short 21" ILF riser...never EVER go back to that store again. Not gonna say "pro" shop. Ain't nothing PRO about it.

So, does that mean you have to purchase your arrows a SECOND TIME, cuz the "pro" shop, sold you the weakest spine rating arrow IN STOCK, cuz that's what "PRO" shops do, they sell you what is in stock, to make a sale...cuz, if they have to order you the CORRECT RECURVE spine arrows..they fear, they will LOSE a sale.

You CAN make your arrows work.
PROBLEM Number 1. They are too short. BUT BUT BUT, my "calculated" RECURVE draw length is 27-INCHES. Besides..."I was MEASURED". Uh-huh.
Wanna know how many THOUSANDS of times, I hear this from my NeWBie recurve students? They were MEASURED, so the "Pro" shop cut my arrows to that length.

That's wut u SUPPOSED ta do, right? Wrong.
So, 600 spine arrows, for 28 pound rated limbs (ummmm....that rating only works for a 25-inch RISER), but, hey, the "Pro" shop knows this right? Uh-huh.
So, the "pro" shop neglected, or probably does not KNOW, that a 21-inch riser will BOOST the limb rating...2 pounds more OTF, for every 2-inches shorter on the riser.

So, u saying that the 600 spine arrows, cut at 27-inches is WRONG for 30# on the fingers? Absolutely. BUT, the PRO shop said, this will work, it's GOOD NUFF.
Nope. How u know dat? What's ur qualifications?

Answer. Did the "PRO" shop have you fire a group of three fletched arrows, and ONE bareshaft at 18 meters, to confirm that YOU, shooting UR new bow,
that YOU, shooting your new bow in YOUR hands, could slam the BARESHAFT into the middle of the fletched group, fired from YOUR hands? If not, never ever go back to this "PRO" shop, cuz they know ZERO about recurve shooting and tuning. Nada. Zilch.

BUT, hey, they are a "PRO" shop, and they are supposed to be "PRO" about what they sell, right? Nope. They are an archery SALES shop, and definitely not a PRO shop.

So, blah blah blah...can U make my arrows WORK better?
Yes.

K, how?
Dump the 125 grain points, and promise to drive however long it takes, to find a RECURVE archery shop. High probability that anything with hours of driving, are all compound bow SALES shops...and have near zero RECURVE expertise. Simple test. Call on the phone, and tell them you have a 21" Hoyt Satori, and you have a 27" draw length. Do they have ANY arrows in stock that they recommend?

This is a trick question.

If they say, SURE...come on down. I got me sum 600 spine arrows that will work just dandy for ya. Slap on sum 125 grain points, and you will be just golden.
If they say that, HANG up, and never call that "pro" shop again.

Sooo, what's the answer. How U gonna fix me up, huh?

Answer. 300 grain points. I would recommend the 300 grain points, and try 8-inches of brace height, and set the centershot as FAT as possible, ADD as many spacers as you can...since you are shooting off the shelf, and your only options are to add spacers or remove spacers. We want the arrow way LEFT of the bowstring centerline, cuz 300 grains is on the weak side...but I think WEAK might work for you, cuz I'm not convinced you are 27" recurve draw length, and am very convinced you are under-drawing based on your description of arrow flight.
 

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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
300 grains up front? You gotta be kidding. I teach RESULTS based tuning. So, don't believe me? K.

https://www.3riversarchery.com/screw-in-heavy-weight-field-point-test-kit.html

Test kit, for $11. Try the 300 grain screw in field point. This will be a bit too heavy, so use ALL of the shims (spacers) on the plunger setup for your Satori, to get the centershot as far away as possible from the riser wall, to de-power your bow...you use as many spacers as you can, to push centershot away from the riser wall, when the point weight is too heavy. Your pro shop told you this too, right?

When you try the 250 grain screw in field point. This will be a bit too lightweight. So, the 250 grain field point will make your RIDICULOUSLY stiff arrows, behave a bit TOO STIFF, yes, even a 250 grain screw in field point is NOT heavy enough, so to TUNE the centershot (sideways position), on your Satori, you remove (REMOVE) as many spacers as NEEDED, to get the centerline of the arrow PERFECTLY in line with the centerline of the bowstring. I'ma SURE that your pro shop told you this as well, about tuning a barebow (no sights, no plunger)...RIGHT? Yeah, right.

Each test kit comes with two-each of our precision Heavy Weight 5/16" screw-in steel field points. Kit includes two each of: 200 grain, 225 grain, 250 grain, and 300 grain screw-in steel field points.
 

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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
So, since I have a Satori barebow, no plunger, shooting off the shelf...what would be the PERFECT POINT weight?
275 grains, but 3Rivers does not sell a 275 grain field point.

So, what are MY qualifications for barebow recurve? What championships have I won?
None.

So, why should I listen to YOU?
I coach the women's senior barebow champion for NFAA field archery. OR, more accurately, she (before winning the championship), a compound FINGERS shooter and a Olympic Target shooter (fingers, with stabilizers and sights), who enjoys shooting Olympic barebow (a recurve)...comes to me only 3 weeks BEFORE the NFAA field archery championships. She says she is getting bored, cuz the compound thing is just too easy. Yes, she wins in compound fingers. Sooo, she says she wants to try Barebow COMPOUND, and field archery no less. I tell her Barebow COMPOUND is similar, but not exactly the same as Barebow RECURVE. She tells me, yeah, I know. Here's a bow I just bought, and some cams I got from Dave Barnsdale. Can you make some strings and force the compound to fit my COMPOUND barebow draw length? She wants a franken-stein build, and by the way. I got three different spine ratings for carbon arrows, from my arrow sponsor. Can you figure out which arrow, and then, build them up to the correct length and point weight...and oh yeah, I want a 50 yard point on. Championships are 3 weeks away.

I kinda need the bow in a couple days.
 

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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
So, I franken-steined the compound bow. That means you take parts, and create a bow that does NOT meet factory spec, cuz the "factory" does not make a bow that fits her draw length. Then, you put on cams, that were never built by the bow manufacturer, cuz the cams come from someone else (different company). I didn't have time to go out to the 50 yard practice range with her, so I had to guess on the POINT of IMPACT at 20 yards, for HER draw length, and HER draw weight, on the franken-stein bow that I had not built yet....to GUESS where the arrows need to HIT (too high) on the 20 yard target, to get her a 50 yd point on. We test built all three spine ratings, and settled on the spine rating, the tube length and the point weight...I had a LOT of parts, cuz she is a sponsored shooter, and settled on the CHAMPIONSHIP build...string length, compound bow cables length, ran computer models for arrow tube length, point weight, vane weight, nock weight.

ALL guesses, but extremely educated guesses. So, bottom line. She won. PERIOD. Those are my qualifications. Sorry for the RANT, but after 14 YEARS of teaching on this blasted site, still getting the SAME CRAP, about me needs to PROVE what archery coaching course I took, way back in 2005. I have written a book about compound shooting...I have developed my OWN methods. I have trained champion shooters, using my teaching methods. So, there.
 

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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
So, IF you had come to ME first...(hypothetical of course), and told me you want to purchase the Satori.
I would say, have you EVER fired a bow off the shelf, especially since you are a newbie?
U would say you love the romance, the sheer JOY of shooting exactly like Robin Hood, the PUREness of shooting off the shelf.

I would REALLY recommend that you shoot off an elevated arrow rest, even the $2 USD Hoyt Super Rest,
and a REAL ILF recurve riser, say a 25-inch riser. Nope, you INSIST on doing things the HARD way, so you INSIST on the Satori.

K.
Then, I would say you need to invest also in an arrow saw, cuz you are going to spend HOURS tuning the arrow tube length (start at FULL length)
and trim 1 cm off the COMPLETE shaft, and rebuild the arrows to find the tube length, and the point weight that allows your arrows to FLY straight.

I would have recommended a prescription of 1000 spine arrows.
Yes, u heard me, 1000 SPINE arrows are the "CORRECT" arrow prescription for you....not the 600 spine arrows, that the "pro shop" had in stock, cuz that is the WEAKEST carbon arrow for MOST COMPOUND arrow manufacturers. You have a RECURVE bow.

With 1000 SPINE Easton Carbon Ones...(hard to find, cuz they are out of production),
and with 120 grain TARGET points....then, we would tune your bow to PERFECTION, by playing with brace height (I recommend 8-1/8th inches for sTARTERS)
and
also fine tune with custom bowstring material. FASTER bowstring material will wEAKEN arrow performance, cuz of the extra arrow speed. I'm talking non-blended materials.
SLOWER bowstring material will STIFFEN arrow performance, cuz of the LOWER arrow speed. I'm talking blended bowstrings.

BUT, I heard that blended bowstrings will SNAP and DESTROY my ILF limbs? Not at YOUR pounds on the fingers. I custom build a new recurve bowstring for ALL of my in person students, especially the newbies, cuz of the HORRIBLE string quality that the "pro" shops sold, each and every of my newbie recurve students. How come u have so MANY RECURVE students? Cuz, they were all FRUSTRATED by their experience with "pro" shops, and I have to tell the parents, that they have to purchase a NEW set of arrows, all over again, cuz they were sold what was in STOCK...and their description of the arrow flight, PERFECTLY matches what you describe...and when I have the NEWBIE students shoot some arrows at 18 meters...the arrows MISS the entire target...sometimes, and the GROUP size is usually the ENTIRE 40 cm target face or beyond.

Then, when I build them a custom string that actually FITS the nock system they are using,
when I pull out "properly" spined arrows,
when I measure with the archery RECURVE spring scale to get an ACTUAL pounds on the fingers reading,
then, when I run my software...to save time selecting PROPER arrow spine, and PROPER arrow tube length, and PROPER point weight...

especially when the parents say they cannot afford new arrow tubes, then, I have to look for the MASSIVELY heavy point weights, to get the arrows to fly straight,
and at least IF they have a plunger, then, I can also play with the PLUNGER SPRING pressure.

But, what if the parents say they cannot afford a plunger? Then, I hand the student my personal Beiter plunger. She is still using it.
With my very own first RECURVE riser, a Hoyt Gold Medalist (wait a sec...isn't that like a 40 year old RISER)?...yup,
and with a brand spanking new recurve string I built to fit HER nocks,
and with HER existing arrows (too stiff)
she NAILS all of her arrows in the RED and YELLOW rings.

HOW is this possible? U said that the arrows are ALWAYS too stiff. Well, in HER case, the arrows were only 1 spine rating too stiff.
U were sold arrows that are 4 SPINE ratings TOO stiff, and this just is absolutely UN-ACCEPTABLE, and really REALLY gets my goat!
 

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(aka lug nut)
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Hi everyone. I'm quite a newbie so I'm not sure what the issue here is and if someone could help, that would be great. My arrows fly and impact in a really strange way. It's almost like the back of the arrow is rotating around the tip as it flies (with some fishtailing/porpoising thrown in). I took a video that shows what I'm talking about, but I can't post links here. If it'll help, my YouTube channel is Atrum and the video is called Arrow Question. You can see the weird way that the arrow impacts the target. The arrows erratically hit the target at steep angles, generally angled up and to the left.

It's a 21" Hoyt Satori with medium length ILF limbs (WNS Explore CB1) for a total length of 64" and a draw weight of 28#. The arrows are carbon Warrior shafts with feather fletching and a spine of 600, length of 27", and a 125 grain field tip. The tiller is even, and I'm shooting 3 under. The brace height is 8.25 inches. When I look at the bow from behind, the arrow is slightly to the left of the string. My nock point is very slightly above perpendicular. I have a 66" recurve that has 30# limbs and I shoot these exact arrows perfectly out of it. Does anyone know what this could be?
Shoot three fletched arrows and at LEAST two bareshafts at a bullseye, set at 20 yards.
Take a photo of all FIVE arrows in the target.

What's a bareshaft?
That means you take a dull utility knife and scrape off all the feathers on TWO of your arrows. Why do I want to RUIN two of my arrows? That's gonna cost me $$$$ to get the feathers replaced. You cannot tune a recurve bow unless you have two arrows tubes, with no feathers. These two "bareshaft" arrows, just have a nock and the point.
 
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