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im shooting a zona custom at 55lb at 29" bow with beman mfx 400 arrows at full length, 125grain tips, and 5" shield cut feathers and they fly great and have no issues what so ever, heres the question, why is everybody putting so much weight up front on carbon arrows? my arrows weigh in at 453grains total weight. am i missing something?
 

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Well...in my case, I am shooting Gold Tip Hunter Expedition 3555s with a spine deflection of .500, which is even weaker than your .400, and my arrows tune over-stiff right up to 200 grain points, at which point they put bullet holes in the paper when I paper tune. I am even tempted to throw 300 grains on just to see if I can make my arrows weak!

I am shooting a Bear Grizzly recurve with 50 @ 28. A good friend of mine has a Bear Montana longbow with 55 @ 28, and he shoots 300 grain tips for similar reasons.

So in our cases, it happened to be where our bows tuned out (with paper, not bare shaft, mind you). I have also become a fan of the hitting power that heavy broadheads deliver. I used to be obsessed with speed when I was a compound guy, but now in traditional bows my taste has turned more towards an emphasis on stability, and heavy hitting arrows.

Besides, one look at a 300 grain broadhead and you'll just want to shoot it.
 

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im shooting a zona custom at 55lb at 29" bow with beman mfx 400 arrows at full length, 125grain tips, and 5" shield cut feathers and they fly great and have no issues what so ever, heres the question, why is everybody putting so much weight up front on carbon arrows? my arrows weigh in at 453grains total weight. am i missing something?
It's the EFOC thing. BTW, Have you chronoed your bow with those light arrows?
 

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heavy -

Several reasons.

1. Adding that much weight up front is required to make the arrows tune correctly (You said they "fly great", but didn't mention formal tuning confirmation.)

2. The arrow may be so light as to be unsafe for the bow and the extra weight solves that problem.

3. They "think" they "need" it because they've bought into the EFOC (Extreme Front of Center balance) non-sense.

Viper1 out.
 

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3. They "think" they "need" it because they've bought into the EFOC (Extreme Front of Center balance) non-sense.

Viper1 out.
Tony, Count me in this group. I will be going on a Fathers Day hog hunt and I will be taking my 38# ACS-CX. I have no idea if the whole EFOC thing is real or imagined but I am going for any real or imagined advantage that I can get........including the use of single bevel broadheads and of course good shot placement. BTW, Easton St Epic 600 (6.4 gpi) with 225grains up front. John :darkbeer:
 

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I don't do the EFOC arrows myself, because with the weights, both in bows and arrows, that I shoot are overkill for whitetail anyway as long as I do my part, but when a doctor spends 20 years doing a scientific study paid for out of his own pocket, then posts every bit of it for the good of archers and the animals they pursue, I do tend to listen, and believe me when I'm face to face with a big brown bear, then EFOC arrows will be flying out of my bow.......The good Doctor Ashby has the credentials to back up his study, It's disheartening that you should call it nonsense Viper........

The offer is still open for Farmland Tony, and there's a whole lot of archers that would love for you to come and show us how it's done.......and bring some of your books to sell, then you can write it off as a business expense....
 

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It's disheartening that you should call it nonsense Viper...
Disheartening? Respectfully, I would suggest that less importance should be placed on the opinions of others (unless, of course, they are your spouse).

Experience is master. Like mentioned above, take the feathers off, shoot them and watch how they fly differently. Changing the point weight can correct poor flight.

And while experience is master, it is my humble opinion that momentum is king. And so I don't think 'overkill' is possible.

A fourth advantage to adding point weight is that a heavier arrow absorbs more of the energy of the bow resulting in far less vibration; thus it is quieter shooting.
 

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"Disheartening? Respectfully, I would suggest that less importance should be placed on the opinions of others (unless, of course, they are your spouse)."

Your exactly right Sharpstyk,, but I read it as a statement and not an opinion...

And as far as the vibration goes, well the design of the bow has a bit to do with that too, I have a twice "repaired" broken neck with a third break left unrepaired due to it's severity,, which makes me very sensitive to any vibration or handshock, I shoot these weights to maintain my shooting ability, if I drop down below 65#'s for any length of time, I suffer for it, I have been through many bows, most didn't make it past a few shots before I sent them on to a new home, the ones I have now, are the best I have found for my situation, and have no shock what-so-ever, I'll bet my [email protected] longbow is as quiet or more so than what your shooting, even with these "light" arrows, experience is indeed the master, and this is my experience after shooting many bows and many more arrows after I was told I would never be able to shoot a bow again.......so believe me I know doctors can be wrong, but Doc Ashby and his natal study is sound advise.......
 

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I don't do the EFOC arrows myself, because with the weights, both in bows and arrows, that I shoot are overkill for whitetail anyway as long as I do my part, but when a doctor spends 20 years doing a scientific study paid for out of his own pocket, then posts every bit of it for the good of archers and the animals they pursue, I do tend to listen, and believe me when I'm face to face with a big brown bear, then EFOC arrows will be flying out of my bow.......The good Doctor Ashby has the credentials to back up his study, It's disheartening that you should call it nonsense Viper........

The offer is still open for Farmland Tony, and there's a whole lot of archers that would love for you to come and show us how it's done.......and bring some of your books to sell, then you can write it off as a business expense....
Some consider themselves the highest authority, because of their first hand experiences. Some have even written books on those experiences. Others don't want to believe what they don't want to believe. Others that have shot a good many critters believe in that "EFOC nonsense" because it parallels their own "real world" experiences.
 

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Voodoofire1,

Yes, almost everything reads like a statement, doesn't it, when so much is only opinion (in my opinion).

I understand what you are saying about the transfer of shock to the body. It is good that you are shooting!

All the Best,
D
 

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John -

The reason the EFOC thing IS non-sense is because people have been successfully taking (North Am) game with more conventional weight arrows and heads for decades, if not centuries without being able to spell EFOC. Same holds true for the light vs heavy arrow thing. If camps are equally divided on a given topic, with both producing similar results, it really does imply that the bone of contention is indeed meaningless.

The other two factors I mentioned seem to carry a little more weight (pun intended).

On the flip side, everybody seems to want an edge, that has also been the case for centuries; and that edge, even if purely psychological perhaps shouldn't be discounted. Use whatever gives you confidence.

Viper1 out.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
i guess im still a bit confused. i just done understand why you need all that weight up front to get your arrows to fly good. im no rocket scientist, mabye all the house fire and car fire smoke has clogged my brain cells.... who knows. but i can tell you that my bow shoots 186fps with my set up. i only know becuase someone else wanted to know. i really dont care im not a speed guy. i also can tell you that i've shot with some of the best traditional guys in the area and never had a problem going arrow for arrow with my set up.

if anybody wants to fill me in on what i should be using and why, im all ears.... seriously.
 

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heavy -

The "gold standard" is still bare shaft tuning. You can go to www.bowmaker.net and drill down to the tuning page. Adcock outlines the principles and practices of doing it. You may already be spot on or not, we have no way of telling from here.

Apex -

Good point. If I based what I say solely on "my" experiences, it would carry as much weight (there's that word again) as anyone elses'. After a while, we all have a database of personal experience, COMBINED with what we hear and see from others, yeah even those who we might disagree with. That combination paints a more realistic or "global" picture. Hopefully when someone gives advice, their "database" is a little bigger than their personal experiences or comprised simply of what "Dr" Asby, Howard Hill or Fred Bear said.

Viper1 out.
 

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Well I also do not shoot a heavy point arrow, I Have tried it, shot 600gr arrow out of a 55# recurve, a few reasons why I did, bowyers advise not to drop below 10gr per pound, and alot of reading on web sites like here and a few more.
Why I don't shoot heavy arrows now, the bows I shoot will handle a 6 gr per pound arrow, No not shooting a 6gr per pound arrows its more like 7.5 or 8 if the limbs don't handle the lighter arrows I replace the limbs, Which hasn't happend yet. Another reason is where I hunt the chances of a 20yd shot are slim and far between, so a flatter arrow will get you a bit more ditance. Shock and vibration is something I don't like also, the risers are normally heavy which will take alot of vibration out of your shot.
 

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Coodster -

When I was hunting in the 70's and 80's I used a BEAR 316 Magnum aluminum arrow with 125 - 145 heads from a 63# BEAR T/D, based on THEIR (BEAR'S) recommendation. The combination worked quite well. I never gave arrow weight a thought, I mean, I was following the manufacturer's recommendation after all. A few years back (literally a few years back) I finally got a digital scale and weighted one of those same arrows. Came out to about 500 - 520 grains total. Do the math :D .

Now, of course, that's not considered optimal or even adequate ... in some circles.

Viper1 out.
 

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I've got some Gold Tip 600's full length 30.5" w/ 100 gr points (300gr total weight) arrows that shoot excellent from my 35# Dorado. Not going to hunt with that setup, but it is fast and fun to shoot outside. I also have some full length Beeman ICS Hunter 500's 31.5" w/ 125 gr point that I shoot from the same Dorado with 40# limbs and get excellent results. I will likely use that setup for hunting. With both setups bare shafts group with fletched arrows. I used Stu Miller's calculator to get close and have had good results with it.
 

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When I was hunting in the 70's and 80's I used... a 63#... (arrow weight) came out to about 500 - 520 grains total. Do the math :D .

Now, of course, that's not considered optimal or even adequate ... in some circles.
Nothing wrong with a 500 grain/8 grains per pound arrow (in my opinion), FWIW (which is less than zero, truly). :smile:
 

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im shooting a zona custom at 55lb at 29" bow with beman mfx 400 arrows at full length, 125grain tips, and 5" shield cut feathers and they fly great and have no issues what so ever, heres the question, why is everybody putting so much weight up front on carbon arrows? my arrows weigh in at 453grains total weight. am i missing something?
I think you can use them because you left them full lenth. I can do the same thing with 340s pulling to 30" though. If I cut them, it's a whole different ball game. Carbons seem more sensitive to lenth than tip weight.
 

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John -

The reason the EFOC thing IS non-sense is because people have been successfully taking (North Am) game with more conventional weight arrows and heads for decades, if not centuries without being able to spell EFOC. Same holds true for the light vs heavy arrow thing. If camps are equally divided on a given topic, with both producing similar results, it really does imply that the bone of contention is indeed meaningless.

The other two factors I mentioned seem to carry a little more weight (pun intended).

On the flip side, everybody seems to want an edge, that has also been the case for centuries; and that edge, even if purely psychological perhaps shouldn't be discounted. Use whatever gives you confidence.

Viper1 out.
:teeth::teeth::teeth:

Here here... though I'm only commenting on wood. If you can hit the target with a broadhead with wood (and aluminum anyway), if it's an accurate shot, case closed, as far as hunting can predict such anyway... :)

Much Aloha... :cool::beer:
 
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