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Chisel...for that possibility of hitting shoulder or elbow socket. Just peace of mind I guess. I also shoot heavy arrows with high KE and MO. If I was to shoot lighter gear or if it were my kid I'd likely choose a COC head. My 2 cents
 

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Corripe Cervisiam
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Not even close IMO

Coc has all of the advantages assuming its a strong blade. Its not true that chisel points 'Break bone" better than a strong 2 blade...advertising claim I guess. All of the Slick trick mag and Muzzy 3 blade style heads I've seen in bone just wedge in and stop...where a strong 2 blade can penetrate further due to its mechanical advantage.

The main reason I like COC is I get little animal reaction on the shot...sometimes the animal just stands there and then falls over. If you like bloodtrails you won't like these- grin. They don't take off like a bat out of hell as when hit with the short chisel heads or the mech heads.

pic is a severed elk spine...my buddies bad shot but it dropped the bull- steelforce Phathead
Phathead 1 reduced.jpg

this ST std stopped dead in the off side shoulder blade of a big bull [2nd arrow]
BH ST mangled red.jpg
Pulled this off the internet
2008%20deer%20008%20%28Medium%29.jpg

have you ever tried dragging your skinning knife over the outside of a hide...well then you know how quickly hair and hide can dull your knife. Well this is a ST mag entry hole chopping its way in....do you want your head dulled before it even enters the animal? Hide is even worse on thin BH blades.
st hole hair_1.jpg
 

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Corripe Cervisiam
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As you can see by my post above, I've been a student of the game for a long time. Does BH design matter? Heck yes.

If you are taking good shot with a tuned arrow of decent weight...its a testament to the effectiveness of a bow shot arrow that practically every BH out there will work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I know you have been around the blocka time or two beendare...... Let me hear your thoughts on a BH that has chisel plus two blades.... Would you say you get the best of both worlds?
 

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Out of all the deer i've shot with all the different heads, i've only had one arrow not pass through. NAP Killzone Trophy Tip. Hit off side shoulder of a doe and didn't even break the bone. (No exit hole) 14 yards, 72 pounds with a 430 grain arrow. First and last deer i shot with that head.

I've never done broadhead experiments, so this is about all i can offer you. Hopefully it's worth something. I've never been able to tell the difference in tip types.
 

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Corripe Cervisiam
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I know you have been around the blocka time or two beendare...... Let me hear your thoughts on a BH that has chisel plus two blades.... Would you say you get the best of both worlds?

Well seeing as how I killed your thread...thats the least I can do-Grin

This BH subject CAN be overthought....I've personally seen probably 35 different heads in all sorts of configurations kill animals- thus all of the fanboys of even the crazy designs- they all work.

But if you ask me, the COC big 2 blades...and the strong tapered COC 3 blades outperform over time. The only advantage i've seen on chisel points is you can mic them on a jig easier [with a micrometer to make sure they are dead nuts straight]

The chisel points I've seen in bone just punch a hole [so I suppose its not exactly misleading advertising as they did "Bust bone" grin] where the strong 2 blade designs act like a wedge. I've seen the double bevel 2 blades do a number in big bones. I cannot attest to the single bevel being better but there are a lot of tests that would indicate they are at least as good if not better.

What has failed miserably was the weak heads. Those plastic ferrule head they used to sell in the early 80's were duds. I've seen some of those trad heads just roll up...and I've seen the thin mech blades break, bend and get completely destroyed....but then the animal still died- so? I think its a rare case where the BH failed ON THE RIGHT SETUP. Of course you are asking for trouble shooting a thin over the top mech head on a 340gr super fast arrow at elk. I think we can call that "Operator error"

I also think we are brainwashed by advertising that we need to cut, "A huge hole"...its simple physics...the bigger cut dia has more resistance. Now many of us are shooting setups with energy to burn- so its a non issue. We know those heads work- look at all of the successes. Again, when it comes down to it, my preference is to have the penetration...over a big hole...i always want 2 holes....and i've seen it where that extra 1" of penetration caught a vital artery.

But when it all comes down to it- I like that old school tapered 3 blade coc design and the strong main blade 2 blade design [sometimes with bleeder] In that elk vertebra pic that head had the bleeder and I think if it didn't have the bleeder it would have kept going severing it completely. Hey, they have known for 1,000 years what works best for a BH when you think about it...
 

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"Hey, they have known for 1,000 years what works best for a BH when you think about it..."

Think about this.
A two blade does work but if it worked best, why don't everybody still shoot a stone two blade?

The two chisel points above didn't fail, the blades behind them certainly did and definitely not enough momentum in addition to poor shot placement.
 

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Corripe Cervisiam
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..... why don't everybody still shoot a stone two blade?
.......
Well it takes some serious skill to knapp those stone points- thats why.

Have you seen those good obsidian heads? Much sharper than the heads we are using now....talk about blood trails!
 

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A COC takes less pressure to start penetration and loses less mo/ke while it then penetrates....
 

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Beendare is right. COC heads will out perform chisel points every time all else being equal . I've killed well over 200
Big game animals and used several different types of heads . All in all a good big thick bladed coc type head is the best choice for big tough animals. Blade angles won't be to flat like some of the small head and mechanicals are. Glances on sharp angle are less likely. Penetration exceeds any other design. You can't compare different heads by shooting in foam of ballistic jell. Only true test is lot of shots on live game. When you do it enough and it takes many kills you learn what works best. Not saying chisel points are bad cUse their not just saying coc is better
 

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IMO, a strong two blade, single bevel COC is superior to a chisel tip. As above, I'm not saying chisel tipped broadheads aren't good. Just that COC is better.
 

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I think the terminology we're using in this and most other recent similar discussions should be addressed.
For example, when I think of a "chisel tip", I picture a Bear Razorhead or Zwickey Black Diamond with the very tip filed off perpendicular to the arrow's axis; perhaps a quarter-inch across, and then beveled. (Just like a wood chisel.) This was a fairly common sharpening touch years ago, to prevent the weaker point from curling up on contact with hard bone. (It can't curl up if it's been filed off!).
It worked pretty well most of the time, by the accounts I've heard.

I'd tend to think that "trocar type" is a more accurate description of the ST-style replaceable-blade models depicted in photos posted in this thread so far.

JMO; no big deal...
 

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Team Overkill
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I'll take a chisel tip over a coc on whitetail any day. Since we are traveling back in time, the Chisel tip was designed by ancient Greek warriors to break through armor. Hide is the easiest part to penetrate followed by the soft vitals. Bone however is much easier to penetrate when busted out of the way as opposed to a coc blade trying to wedge it's way through. Even the coc single bevel advocates highlight this as the true inferiority of the double bevel coc broadheads. In fact, that is their largest opposing factor in the debate. Busting through bone allows for much less drag on the shaft and much more clearance for the blades to pass through.

I don't want to be the guy that shows pictures of replaceable blades, having been used, needing to be replaced as an example of inferiority because that's a bit silly, IMO. I also don't care if they bolt off because they are only traveling maybe 30yds and leaving plenty of blood behind to follow. Penetration depends on more than the broadhead. Everyone should know their personal limitations with their setups as well as know they're not everyone else's limitations to share. Shoot what you prefer because it makes sense to you and is effective for what you are pursuing.
 

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Just an observation. 1) All three above photos are of fixed blade arrows with bad shot placement. Might be because they didn't get them to fly like field points.
Cut on contact in first photo went through about 1/2 " bone then hollow then touched the front of the arrow which probably stopped the arrow because its hard to put something round through a split. Wonder how far it would have traveled if the broadhead were turned 90 degree.
Second picture is a trocar tip that worked but the fixed blade was weak. And again we know nothing about momentum on either shot. Notice the difference in penetration between the 3 blade coc and the 3 blade trocar tip.
2deer grom reeper.jpg
This deer about 250 lbs live weight, was shot with a 60 pound bow 350 gr arrow with a 1 3/8" Grim Reaper razor tip, which is a trocar tip. Shot was pretty much 10 yards almost straight down. Arrow went through the middle of the spine and out through the sternum, then stuck in the ground. This and the last 100 big game animals have succumb to the Grim Reaper 1 3/8 " Razor tip for me. At least I pretty much hit where I aim.
 

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wolfey
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That's a dandy of a buck jim. As far as which style head I prefer I'm undecided. Haven't shot anything but Trocar tips but will be trying out the magnus black hornet which is COC this year.
 

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That's a dandy of a buck jim. As far as which style head I prefer I'm undecided. Haven't shot anything but Trocar tips but will be trying out the magnus black hornet which is COC this year.
Thanks wolfey: The last 5 P&Y including my Bear were with the GR 1 3/8" Razor tip. Not saying coc don't work but these certainly do, and I can hit where I aim with them.
 

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wolfey
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Thanks wolfey: The last 5 P&Y including my Bear were with the GR 1 3/8" Razor tip. Not saying coc don't work but these certainly do, and I can hit where I aim with them.
I've always had great luck with Trocar tips. I like the exodus alot. Shot a 220lbs field dressed buck quartering toward me at 10 yards hit him high in the shoulder am lost by the spine hit the hind leg on exit so didn't pass though all the way but did with inglorious 30 yards.the buck only ran 80 yards or so and piled up. Most exciting hunt I've ever had.
 
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