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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'd like to know...

If a deflexed riser design makes an "easier shooting" bow..........
(And since designers have been able to get some "decent" speeds from them)...........

Why aren't there more players in this technology???
I think that BowTech & Maitland are the only two in this "game."
(I know it is more difficult to generate speed & enegry with C/P limb designs.)

And: What's the real "scoop" (ADVANTAGES & DISADVANTAGES) on shooting a deflex riser bow??? (Especially for use in a hunting environment.)

I'd really like to know how much more "forgiveness" is actually present in a C/P (deflex) design all other things being "equal?"
(In theory, of course... Comparing two "imaginary" bows, one deflex, on reflex, different risers with equal brace height.)

If you've owned both... Actual experience comparisons will also be appreciated.
(Do you actually shoot better with your C/P bow?)
 

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PSE has some neutral riser bows on the market. Hoyt's Vantage bows (and ProTECS and ProElites) are also of neutral/deflexed geometry. Neither are "center pivots", but why would they be? :dontknow:
 

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Yup, deflexed risers tend to tip back toward the shooter with no stabilizers. This just means you can put some real stabilizers on there with some mass on 'em and not need the extra weight of back bars many times. That tipping back when bare is also a side effect of having the greatest amount of it's mass behind the pivot point (the interface between hand and bow), which gives added torque resistance during the shot, too. I've personally noticed that deflexed/neutral risers aim better, with less movement on target and quicker settle times.
 

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The Maitland zeus exhibits a deflex riser, it's weighted rear of the pivot Point and will roll backwards

I will say my Zeus is a much easier bow to aim and shoot than my vantage x7 was
 

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What about a CP riser, is deflex?

The only difference between a deflex and a reflex riser, is balance. As Buster of Xs, pointed out.

There is no inherent speed, or torque difference. That's all about brace height.

As far as torque is concerned, think about it like this. Draw an imaginary vertical line, from axle to axle. Measure from that line, to the throat of the grip. The measurement you get will be related to the brace height, but it will be a lower number, since the string doesn't ride on the axles. It is pushed back by the cams.

Anyway, that measurement is actually the ARM, that allows the string to counteract the shooter torquing the grip. The longer the arm, the "harder" it is to torque the grip, because the string has more leverage in the yaw axis.

Something else to consider, is that the arm changes, from brace to full draw. If you have a "parallel limb bow", it won't change much. If you have a "vertical limb bow", the arm increases at full draw. And, if you have a "past parallel limb bow", it will actually decrease at full draw.

The only other things that change how easy or difficult it is to torque the grip are; the grip's physical size, and the bow's holding weight.

It's a lot easier to torque a big grip, with 10# of holding weight, than it is to torque a thin grip, with 25# of holding weight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What about a CP riser, is deflex?
Well, if you look at the actual pivot point on the limb, it's behind the grip, and that's where the energy really begins building from. ~Unless I'm missing something here.
So that makes it a deflex riser design, according to B/T anyways.... (Right?)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Didn't Parker make a bow that looked exactly like a Diamond Iceman?
Funny you should say that... I thought I recently saw one in a mail order catalog recently, and make that same comment to one of my friends. But when I went to look for it online, couldn't find mention of it anywhere.... Afterwards, I presumed either I was mistakenly looking at a different page... Or that the photo of the bow under the Parker logo was merely a "mis-placed image typo."

When and where did you come across this "Parker Diamond Iceman Look-a-like?"
 

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Yup, deflexed risers tend to tip back toward the shooter with no stabilizers. This just means you can put some real stabilizers on there with some mass on 'em and not need the extra weight of back bars many times. That tipping back when bare is also a side effect of having the greatest amount of it's mass behind the pivot point (the interface between hand and bow), which gives added torque resistance during the shot, too. I've personally noticed that deflexed/neutral risers aim better, with less movement on target and quicker settle times.
Yes and imo,this is part of the reason I don't look at brace as much as I do riser geometry.I wish manufactures like Hoyt still put the amount of reflex/deflex in their specs.

In my experience,a deflex riser is also much harder to torque the limb tips,regardless of brace.

Atleast we are seeing much more long pocket designs helping in this area.(imo,they react much more neutral)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yup, deflexed risers tend to tip back toward the shooter with no stabilizers. This just means you can put some real stabilizers on there with some mass on 'em and not need the extra weight of back bars many times. That tipping back when bare is also a side effect of having the greatest amount of it's mass behind the pivot point (the interface between hand and bow), which gives added torque resistance during the shot, too. I've personally noticed that deflexed/neutral risers aim better, with less movement on target and quicker settle times.
Question Here (for Buster of Xs): Then why is it that my 2009 Admiral is so "top heavy" then? If I shoot the bow open handed, the bow rolls forward without any front weight added. It seemed so dis-proportionately top heavy that I went to a two piece Trophy Ridge arrow cage (quiver) to put mass below and behind the grip..... Before that I was shooting without any stab, but this bow doesn't shoot acceptable groups without ample stab weight out front....

The reason I started this thread was to decide whether to abandon C/P bows (at least for the time being) in favor of something else, like a G5Prime, or Carnage for hunting. I want a reasonably easy (consistent) hunting bow with some speed.... I gave that up when I began put down my 2004 B/T Justice 80# "in favor" of hunting with my 2009 70# Admiral. The Justice was a single cam reflex design which I seem to shoot much more consistently.

~It' (the Justice) seemed significantly more forgiving too, even though it is a reflex design with only 1/2 inches of extra brace and similar speed. (80# limbs)

Ultimately, I'm just trying to understand why my experience with C/P has been so disappointing, and to the contrary of what I had expected........ Especially when so many others praise this technology in terms of "shootability" and "forgiveness."
 

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Center pivot bows are a hybrid of sorts so the basic fundamentals of reflex/deflex will vary slightly.

A true deflex riser will actually bend away from the shooter(as pictured above) and a reflex will bend toward the shooter.The balance trates will be more representative of these designs.

The nice thing about a center pivot or long pocket design is the "forgiveness" associated with a deflex but balance more closely match that of a reflex.Giving them a much more neutral feel.IMO,the forgiveness will not match that of a true deflex but it is a good neutral design.

Many things go into how well one shoots a bow,not just reflex/deflex/brace or A-A. All these things play a role but balance to the shooter,grip design,draw length,poundage and arrow spine will all play into it as well.We also have to consider where the grips is placed vertically and horizontally in the design as well.

A few numbers on paper are nice but will not tell the whole story as it relates to how well a bow will shoot for an individual.


IMO,deflex is very much a good indicator of potential "forgiveness" as much as brace is.How easy it is to move the limb tips is all about leverage.You must move a limb pocket before you move the limb tips and a reflex design bow gives you more leverage on the pockets than does a deflex,therefore,making it easier to move the pocket and consequently,the limb tips move easier as well.

I know the best shooting bow I ever had was a true deflex design in an 06 Hoyt Protec.I did everything I could to see how it reacts to torque and it still shot well.I loved it when I would "blow" a shot at 40 and the arrow still went where it was supposed to.
 

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Copter doc is right about bringing up dynamic brace height to this discussion

A traditional limb angled bow will have increasing dynamic BH as the bow is draw which increases it's resistance to grip torque
 

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Question Here (for Buster of Xs): Then why is it that my 2009 Admiral is so "top heavy" then? If I shoot the bow open handed, the bow rolls forward without any front weight added. It seemed so dis-proportionately top heavy that I went to a two piece Trophy Ridge arrow cage (quiver) to put mass below and behind the grip..... Before that I was shooting without any stab, but this bow doesn't shoot acceptable groups without ample stab weight out front....

The reason I started this thread was to decide whether to abandon C/P bows (at least for the time being) in favor of something else, like a G5Prime, or Carnage for hunting. I want a reasonably easy (consistent) hunting bow with some speed.... I gave that up when I began put down my 2004 B/T Justice 80# "in favor" of hunting with my 2009 70# Admiral. The Justice was a single cam reflex design which I seem to shoot much more consistently.

~It' (the Justice) seemed significantly more forgiving too, even though it is a reflex design with only 1/2 inches of extra brace and similar speed. (80# limbs)

Ultimately, I'm just trying to understand why my experience with C/P has been so disappointing, and to the contrary of what I had expected........ Especially when so many others praise this technology in terms of "shootability" and "forgiveness."
Well, it isn't really a deflexed design, although some want to say it is for marketing purposes. There is still lots of riser mass in front of the grip and the grip is lower than center....these things will make it balance horribly with any real stabilizers on it, as you've already noticed.

If you haven't already, I suggest you shoot a ProTEC/ProElite and see for yourself how well a deflexed/neutral riser design with a vertically centered grip and a dynamic brace height increase actually do reduce the effects of torque, or more importantly what it AIMS like. Then compare that to a CP BowTech and there's no comparison.
 

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Well, if you look at the actual pivot point on the limb, it's behind the grip, and that's where the energy really begins building from. ~Unless I'm missing something here.
So that makes it a deflex riser design, according to B/T anyways.... (Right?)
Don't believe the marketing!

A CP riser, is more like a reflex, than it is like a deflex.

There is more riser mass placed on the downrange side of the grip, than on the shooter's side of the grip. It makes the bow balance with a forward bias.

What a CP really accomplishes, is uniform limb arc and motion, relative to the riser.

A "standard" limb pocket, forces the limbs to flex over a lesser percentage of their length, and the greatest amount of limb movement, occurs right at the limb tip, with zero movement at the pocket end.

Once you realize that a limb only serves to provide spring tension to operate the cam system, you can understand that the limbs of a compound do not serve to "throw" the arrow, like they do in a traditional stick and string bow.

A CP limb, flexes along it's entire span. Not merely behind the pivot.

As you draw back, the ends of the limb move inward, in relation to the riser, while the center moves outward in relation to the riser. Upon release, the movement is reversed, and the conflicting movement does a whole bunch to cancel out the limb induced "hand shock" felt in a "standard" limb pocketed bow.
 
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