Does Arrow have LIFE Span?
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Interesting question.
Other similar items do definately have a life span. One I'm familiar with, Carbon fiber tournament waterskis. In them the flex pattern breaks down over awhile and the ski becomes "dead" at that point it no longer skis like it is supposed to because its flex pattern changes. This happens due to a break down in the adhesives used to laminate the carbon fiber together.
In arrows. There is definately a "cycle" to their being used. Ie, they're being fired repeatedly and each shot their spine goes to work disappating the oscillation of the arrow. Does this break down the arrow? I'm not certain, It'd be interesting to have a machine fire an arrow and check its spine after each shot, and then see after a few thousand or 10's of thousands of shots what the spine is doing. Just guessing I'd say that it would break down with time (based on the waterski example above).
I do bet that for most archers changing trends, changing bows, missed shots, or contact with other arrows will pretty much cause the arrow to be retired before this becomes an issue. Anyone test it?
Other similar items do definately have a life span. One I'm familiar with, Carbon fiber tournament waterskis. In them the flex pattern breaks down over awhile and the ski becomes "dead" at that point it no longer skis like it is supposed to because its flex pattern changes. This happens due to a break down in the adhesives used to laminate the carbon fiber together.
In arrows. There is definately a "cycle" to their being used. Ie, they're being fired repeatedly and each shot their spine goes to work disappating the oscillation of the arrow. Does this break down the arrow? I'm not certain, It'd be interesting to have a machine fire an arrow and check its spine after each shot, and then see after a few thousand or 10's of thousands of shots what the spine is doing. Just guessing I'd say that it would break down with time (based on the waterski example above).
I do bet that for most archers changing trends, changing bows, missed shots, or contact with other arrows will pretty much cause the arrow to be retired before this becomes an issue. Anyone test it?
Thank you 88 PS190.
I fully agree with your statement because recently when I practise at my indoor range an arrow break when I launch the shot.
The arrow still hit to the target butt score an eight at 30M distance but the front part of the arrow broke. Until today still cannot locate the tungsten point.
I manage to locate the Beiter in-out nock, it still in good condition.
I fully agree with your statement because recently when I practise at my indoor range an arrow break when I launch the shot.
The arrow still hit to the target butt score an eight at 30M distance but the front part of the arrow broke. Until today still cannot locate the tungsten point.
I manage to locate the Beiter in-out nock, it still in good condition.
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796 Posts
you would have to shoot ALOT to have the shaft fail due to flexing. More than likely you hit something rigid, or had a crack in your shaft from a prior incidnet.
Also, take some time with your posts and try to use decent grammer and spelling. Reading and comprehension of your posts was not enjoyable.
Also, take some time with your posts and try to use decent grammer and spelling. Reading and comprehension of your posts was not enjoyable.
I try to make my post again.
I broke one of my x10 arrow during my practise. The arrow break during it's flight before hitting to the target butt. I found out the arrow broke 2-3 inches from the tip of the arrow when I retrieve the arrow. the arrow is without point and nock but still manage to hit an eight at 30M distance.
I found the nock but lost the point.
What I am trying to ask, is this arrow reach it's life span already eventhough the arrow did not hit to anything but it still will break to two?
I broke one of my x10 arrow during my practise. The arrow break during it's flight before hitting to the target butt. I found out the arrow broke 2-3 inches from the tip of the arrow when I retrieve the arrow. the arrow is without point and nock but still manage to hit an eight at 30M distance.
I found the nock but lost the point.
What I am trying to ask, is this arrow reach it's life span already eventhough the arrow did not hit to anything but it still will break to two?
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1,675 Posts
I am fairly certain they have a life span. How long, no idea. I suspect they will be replaced due to damage and running out of flying arrows than due to pure flexing. I have found that I replace arrows due to getting them creased/dented/dinged by another arrow than from them wearing out and the spine changing. However, I'm by no means a top target shooter, so I'll bet the top shooters just might wear them out based on sheer number of arrows shot during season. Some of those folks are shooting in excess of 1000 arrows/week.
Maybe some of the high volume shooters can weigh in on this, and provide their criteria for when a set of arrows should be replaced. For my 2 cents, whenever arrows start looking very shaky, and when they start breaking, I would just go ahead and replace, especially if they've gone through several seasons of heavy shooting. Cheap insurance against getting hurt.
Maybe some of the high volume shooters can weigh in on this, and provide their criteria for when a set of arrows should be replaced. For my 2 cents, whenever arrows start looking very shaky, and when they start breaking, I would just go ahead and replace, especially if they've gone through several seasons of heavy shooting. Cheap insurance against getting hurt.
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810 Posts
Just for the record 2-stroke, your post criticizing the spelling and grammar in the post by bsyhs has four spelling errors and two punctuation errors.
You might well be reminded of that old saying, "People in glass houses shouldn't through stones."
As a retired teacher, I can guarantee you that if everyone had to exercise perfect grammar, or even just spelling and punctuation, before making a post, the posts on this forum or any other would be few and far between.
People should be encouraged to express themselves as best they can and not have to worry about someone making fun of them regardless of where they might be from.
You might well be reminded of that old saying, "People in glass houses shouldn't through stones."
As a retired teacher, I can guarantee you that if everyone had to exercise perfect grammar, or even just spelling and punctuation, before making a post, the posts on this forum or any other would be few and far between.
People should be encouraged to express themselves as best they can and not have to worry about someone making fun of them regardless of where they might be from.
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810 Posts
When it comes to carbon arrows, you usually get what you pay for. From tests I have seen, the cheaper arrows from lesser known manufacturers have a tendency to shoot out very quickly in most cases while the more expensive ones from most of the well known manufacturers will last a long time if they are not damaged in any way.
It generally makes for much more enjoyable reading if people would remember to proof-read what they've written before posting it..... that said, let's NOT get into one of these nitpicking sessions. This is an informal forum and the prose is likely to reflect that.
Bshys, regarding your question.....
- From your description, it is almost a certainty that your arrow had a fault in it. The portion of the shaft 2 to 3 inches aft of the point shouldn't see that much flexure (the maximum bending should be about the middle of the arrow). Depending on what the arrow material is, it could have been damaged some time ago and only now decided to 'let go'. Any kind of damage will act as a stress multiplier; how much of a multiplier depends on the nature of the damage.
- On the more general question of whether or not an arrow has a life span, technically I would say yes. This depends on the assumption that the arrow is actually going to get used. There are arrows recovered from Egyptian tombs that are thousands of years old that are still usable only because they've never been used. The primary determining factor is a combination of the flexing/loading cycle applied to the arrow and the physical/mechanical properties of the arrow material. Generally, it is safe to assume that your average aluminum/carbon fiber/wood arrow should be good for several thousand cycles at a minimum.
- One of the major differences between the various materials used in arrow shafts is not only the ability of the material to absorb damage without failure but also to SHOW that damage before catastrophic failure occurs. This is something that carbon fiber arrows are not very good at; they perform beautifully but they don't show damage very well prior to total failure.
Bshys, regarding your question.....
- From your description, it is almost a certainty that your arrow had a fault in it. The portion of the shaft 2 to 3 inches aft of the point shouldn't see that much flexure (the maximum bending should be about the middle of the arrow). Depending on what the arrow material is, it could have been damaged some time ago and only now decided to 'let go'. Any kind of damage will act as a stress multiplier; how much of a multiplier depends on the nature of the damage.
- On the more general question of whether or not an arrow has a life span, technically I would say yes. This depends on the assumption that the arrow is actually going to get used. There are arrows recovered from Egyptian tombs that are thousands of years old that are still usable only because they've never been used. The primary determining factor is a combination of the flexing/loading cycle applied to the arrow and the physical/mechanical properties of the arrow material. Generally, it is safe to assume that your average aluminum/carbon fiber/wood arrow should be good for several thousand cycles at a minimum.
- One of the major differences between the various materials used in arrow shafts is not only the ability of the material to absorb damage without failure but also to SHOW that damage before catastrophic failure occurs. This is something that carbon fiber arrows are not very good at; they perform beautifully but they don't show damage very well prior to total failure.
Heres something from Carbon Tech:
Spine:
Spine is probably the most important part of the arrow shaft and the most ignored. I presume the main reason for this is because it is the hardest for a manufacturer to get right and keep consistent. Also, it is one that cannot be measured very easily by the average person. Let’s determine what spine is and do not confuse it with spline! Spline is what the fishing industry uses in order to get sort of the “back bone” of the fishing rod.
This is sort of an overlap of material in order to get the stiffer side. Keeping this stiff side on the upper side makes it easier to handle when reeling in that big one! In archery you do not want a spline! You want an even consistent spine all the way around the shaft (circumferentially). Spine was established in modern times by Easton who uses a 29” arrow. You place this arrow on two posts measured out 28” apart. You then place a 1.94 pound weight in the middle of the shaft and measure how far the arrow shaft drops down. This gives you a static (non-moving) spine.
When an arrow is launched from a bow, the arrow flexes (dynamic spine). This flex needs to be a specific amount and stay consistent among all the arrows in order to carry a group. If the arrow flexes too much it becomes exceptionally critical. The smallest mistake made by the arrow increases substantially if the arrow is too weak.
If the arrow is too stiff it is not as critical, but does not give the best possible grouping. Thus it is far better for the arrow to be too stiff than too weak. That is why you may note that some companies fudge on the size arrow recommended towards the stiff side. This is far better than on the weak side. Since the arrow flexes upon being launched, you would want it to flex the same.
If the arrow is too stiff it will favor the left side while if the arrow is a bit weak, it favors the right side. Thus you will get lots of rights and lefts if you have lots of inconsistent spines in your arrows and that is exactly what you will get with many of the arrows on the market today. Since most of the archers do not know how to measure this spine, they are unaware of why they are not grouping so well. Also, you will note that most arrows that are sold in dozen groups, only 6 to 8 arrows will group and the rest will not. Again, this is due to the spine more than anything else. Sometimes they can get a few more arrows to group by moving the nock around the shaft a little in order to find a near correct spine.
Many companies do not keep very tight tolerances on spine consistency. This causes all types of problems for the archer and the dealer. Of course, since most archers are not very good or accurate, they do not realize that the arrow is making them look even worse than what they really are. According to tests that I have been involved with, the tighter the spine tolerances the more accurate the arrows become. Keeping them .005” plus or minus is what was set years ago with aluminum arrows and their accuracy has been proven over the years. Some companies have spine deviations of over .040” plus or minus! Thus, it would be like putting spines of a 2113, 2116 and 2119 all in one group of arrows and expect them to shoot well. It will not happen!
Part of the reason for having so many spine inconsistencies is due to the material used. Some companies look for the cheapest product they can find in order to keep costs down. This severely causes huge spine deviations. Also, how the arrow is manufactured will cause spine inconsistencies. Most companies put the spine determining material on the outside and then grind it down to get as close to the weight they can get. However, this causes spine inconsistencies and breaks down the fibers that actually determine the spine. Cutting the materials requires tremendous precision in order to get the exact spines and many companies use like a paper cutting device to get their patterns. This gives a lot of spine inconsistencies as well. It also gives them a “spline” as talked about in the above paragraph.
Now if you consider the inconsistencies of spine, the straightness factors and weight factors, you can see why there is so many discrepancies in arrow shafts. The degree of importance is determined by what material is used. With aluminum arrows, the degree of importance is straightness, spine and then weight. With all carbon it is spine, straightness and then weight. The spine of an aluminum arrow is normally very good to start with.
However, this spine breaks down over time. Depending on the wall thickness spines of an aluminum arrow can break down as fast as 10 shots! This has been proven time and again by some of the best archers world wide. Although the only American manufacturer of aluminum shafts disputes this, the “proof is in the pudding”! Top archers will replace these arrows very quickly without anyone knowing any different.
Most all carbon arrows start to loose their spine over several hundred shots due to wear. As the arrow penetrates the target, the friction microscopically wears down the outer layer of carbon and since most companies have their spine determining layer on the outside, the spine gets weaker and weaker over time. The aluminum arrow breaks down for different reasons. The flexing of the shaft upon impact of the target, pulling the arrow out of the target and the launching of the arrow from the bow continues to flex the aluminum tube constantly and we all know what happens to metals when continuously flexing them back and forth.
Now you can understand some of the simple physics of what is happening to an arrow and why it is important to choose wisely when purchasing arrows.
Orders Support Webmaster Help Center Links Home
Copyright © Carbon Tech 2003
If you find any bugs or have any suggestion concerning the website, contact [email protected]
Spine:
Spine is probably the most important part of the arrow shaft and the most ignored. I presume the main reason for this is because it is the hardest for a manufacturer to get right and keep consistent. Also, it is one that cannot be measured very easily by the average person. Let’s determine what spine is and do not confuse it with spline! Spline is what the fishing industry uses in order to get sort of the “back bone” of the fishing rod.
This is sort of an overlap of material in order to get the stiffer side. Keeping this stiff side on the upper side makes it easier to handle when reeling in that big one! In archery you do not want a spline! You want an even consistent spine all the way around the shaft (circumferentially). Spine was established in modern times by Easton who uses a 29” arrow. You place this arrow on two posts measured out 28” apart. You then place a 1.94 pound weight in the middle of the shaft and measure how far the arrow shaft drops down. This gives you a static (non-moving) spine.
When an arrow is launched from a bow, the arrow flexes (dynamic spine). This flex needs to be a specific amount and stay consistent among all the arrows in order to carry a group. If the arrow flexes too much it becomes exceptionally critical. The smallest mistake made by the arrow increases substantially if the arrow is too weak.
If the arrow is too stiff it is not as critical, but does not give the best possible grouping. Thus it is far better for the arrow to be too stiff than too weak. That is why you may note that some companies fudge on the size arrow recommended towards the stiff side. This is far better than on the weak side. Since the arrow flexes upon being launched, you would want it to flex the same.
If the arrow is too stiff it will favor the left side while if the arrow is a bit weak, it favors the right side. Thus you will get lots of rights and lefts if you have lots of inconsistent spines in your arrows and that is exactly what you will get with many of the arrows on the market today. Since most of the archers do not know how to measure this spine, they are unaware of why they are not grouping so well. Also, you will note that most arrows that are sold in dozen groups, only 6 to 8 arrows will group and the rest will not. Again, this is due to the spine more than anything else. Sometimes they can get a few more arrows to group by moving the nock around the shaft a little in order to find a near correct spine.
Many companies do not keep very tight tolerances on spine consistency. This causes all types of problems for the archer and the dealer. Of course, since most archers are not very good or accurate, they do not realize that the arrow is making them look even worse than what they really are. According to tests that I have been involved with, the tighter the spine tolerances the more accurate the arrows become. Keeping them .005” plus or minus is what was set years ago with aluminum arrows and their accuracy has been proven over the years. Some companies have spine deviations of over .040” plus or minus! Thus, it would be like putting spines of a 2113, 2116 and 2119 all in one group of arrows and expect them to shoot well. It will not happen!
Part of the reason for having so many spine inconsistencies is due to the material used. Some companies look for the cheapest product they can find in order to keep costs down. This severely causes huge spine deviations. Also, how the arrow is manufactured will cause spine inconsistencies. Most companies put the spine determining material on the outside and then grind it down to get as close to the weight they can get. However, this causes spine inconsistencies and breaks down the fibers that actually determine the spine. Cutting the materials requires tremendous precision in order to get the exact spines and many companies use like a paper cutting device to get their patterns. This gives a lot of spine inconsistencies as well. It also gives them a “spline” as talked about in the above paragraph.
Now if you consider the inconsistencies of spine, the straightness factors and weight factors, you can see why there is so many discrepancies in arrow shafts. The degree of importance is determined by what material is used. With aluminum arrows, the degree of importance is straightness, spine and then weight. With all carbon it is spine, straightness and then weight. The spine of an aluminum arrow is normally very good to start with.
However, this spine breaks down over time. Depending on the wall thickness spines of an aluminum arrow can break down as fast as 10 shots! This has been proven time and again by some of the best archers world wide. Although the only American manufacturer of aluminum shafts disputes this, the “proof is in the pudding”! Top archers will replace these arrows very quickly without anyone knowing any different.
Most all carbon arrows start to loose their spine over several hundred shots due to wear. As the arrow penetrates the target, the friction microscopically wears down the outer layer of carbon and since most companies have their spine determining layer on the outside, the spine gets weaker and weaker over time. The aluminum arrow breaks down for different reasons. The flexing of the shaft upon impact of the target, pulling the arrow out of the target and the launching of the arrow from the bow continues to flex the aluminum tube constantly and we all know what happens to metals when continuously flexing them back and forth.
Now you can understand some of the simple physics of what is happening to an arrow and why it is important to choose wisely when purchasing arrows.
Orders Support Webmaster Help Center Links Home
Copyright © Carbon Tech 2003
If you find any bugs or have any suggestion concerning the website, contact [email protected]
That was interesting Wapiti. Last Tuesday I was talking with a friend of mine, a long time archer. I had a half dozen CX 200s in my quiver that have lost their ability to group tightly. I speculated that they were "worn out". That the spine had changed over many shots and refletchings. He infered that that was nonsense, that the difference lay elsewhere. I'm going to print out your post to hang on the bulletin board at the club. Thanks!
Rick
Rick
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876 Posts
ANyone done any scientific tests?
Wapiti...
That brings up the next question:
Are there any documented tests to confirm the "theory" that the shafts lose spine, and at what rate? I call it a theory as I have not yet seen any testing to back it up - not that I disagree at all with you. In fact I do believe that shafts have a lifespan. The question is what should we expect for our ~$50-$500\dozen?
Obviously, this rate will vary if you shoot into different materials, but one arrow shooting from one bow, into one brand of target\backstop (same lot # if possible as I would suspect that you might wear out several during this test). Such a test would give an idea of how many accurate shots to expect. One could also keep going until shaft failure.
This would be one boring test though as you might just want to measure the spine brefore every shot.....
I suspect that the life span of the mid to high end shafts is a relatively high number of shots. For world class archer, with their high number of arrows launched in practice and competition, that time frame may be a year or less. For the average joe, it could be 10 years or more....
Inquiring minds want to know......
Wapiti...
That brings up the next question:
Are there any documented tests to confirm the "theory" that the shafts lose spine, and at what rate? I call it a theory as I have not yet seen any testing to back it up - not that I disagree at all with you. In fact I do believe that shafts have a lifespan. The question is what should we expect for our ~$50-$500\dozen?
Obviously, this rate will vary if you shoot into different materials, but one arrow shooting from one bow, into one brand of target\backstop (same lot # if possible as I would suspect that you might wear out several during this test). Such a test would give an idea of how many accurate shots to expect. One could also keep going until shaft failure.
This would be one boring test though as you might just want to measure the spine brefore every shot.....
I suspect that the life span of the mid to high end shafts is a relatively high number of shots. For world class archer, with their high number of arrows launched in practice and competition, that time frame may be a year or less. For the average joe, it could be 10 years or more....
Inquiring minds want to know......
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