Excellent work, Thin Man. For me, probably not a single evening goes by that I am not assisting a new recurve shooter in just basics, from the first time shooter, to ongoing informal lessons. I have observed it from one perspective of how I was trained that seems to have only a slight variation to your scale.

Larger shooters can initially pull and hold and shoot heavier bows than smaller framed ones. Some folks may be skinny, but tall, and seem to be able to do the same or more.

BUT, once you start with a basic JOAD/NFAA training regime, all is off the table. I have yet to see even the strongest male shooter do what the kids are taught unless they drop down to a super light draw to their body mass and ability. The muscles used are just too new the game. The finesse to control these muscles is long out from being developed.

But, I also know when to not infuse target goals on someone who is there for a whole other reason, though, they usually end up asking how to improve.

 

Good post Thin Man. Helps keep things in perspective.

At 185 lbs, I shot a 40# LH bow before sending it out a month or two ago. It was on the limit of what I could control with muscles unconditioned to the exercise while expecting reasonable accuracy/ bow control. I didn't do too badly at 10-15 yards, but if I ever need to switch hands I certainly wouldn't try it with more than that, and preferably a litle lighter.

 

I need to eat more burgers!

In all honesty...I really like this and believe that it will help some out. I am a beginner and this chart makes my new purchase of a 45# draw bow not so daunting. (Already learned my lesson with a 60#er)

 

It seems to me that the only reasonable suggestion of draw weight for the novice would be a bow that he can hold at full draw for at least 30 seconds without shaking. Of course the novice now has to find or borrow a bow before he can discover whether he is capable of holding the bow at full draw and he might have no idea on how to go about doing that or of which poundage to start with.

My opinion is that even a big guy will not be hurt by starting with a 30-35# bow. I know that I didn't want to learn on a sissy 30# bow because I could tell it was way too slow to hunt deer with but I didn't take into consideration that you have to be accurate enough to poke a deer in the vitals before you can put him in the freezer.

If you are 6'5" and 330 lbs just start with a 30# bow and learn to shoot. If you are 4'10" and 120 lbs start with a 30# bow and learn how to shoot. After learning the basic mechanics of shooting you can then be in a position to make choices.

 

Pretty new and when I bounce back and forth between shooting a recurve and a compound. I generally use a "lightweight" recurve.

My backyard/practicing my form recurve is an older Damon Howatt and is a 62" rated at 28# @ 28". I draw oly-style with a simple front pin sight to ~29-29.25", so I figure the actual DW is somewhere around 31-32#s. (+/- a #.)

My indoor 300 score with this Bow is not too far behind what I do with my compound set at ~60lb.s . The let off is 65% on a Hoyt Cam 1/2. So holding weight is ~21#s

I also have a traditional recurves in 33#, 38#, and 40# since i don't hunt I don't find it necessary to draw a heavier bow.

My targets aren't alive (so I don't have to worry about them spooking and they run away) and for the most part I would have ample time to take my shots in a 3D or FITA event.

My objective is to try and remain injury free, and draw only as much as I need to hit the target consistently.

I never understood why a lot of the archers at the range and club who only shoot paper found it necessary to shoot 40+ # bows with many of them shooting in the 50#DW range. With any of my recurves I can hold longer and concentrate on my form instead of physically and mentally struggling with a heavier bow.

And, I don't complain about soreness afterwards?

I suppose it depends on what your objectives are, I shoot targets and I can care less how long it takes my arrow to get to the target just as long as I'm doing it consistently.

Also based on those charts I should be shooting a 45# recurve at my 220+lb.s weight, a recurve I don't own or ever intend to shoot unless both form and strength dictate progression to that DW.

 

The charts are not based upon the documented, or even common, draw weight of 45# for the "average 180 pound man". I have no idea what draw weight the average 180 pound man shoots - or even if there is a firm statistic on this.

That figure is an arbitrary one I chose to use as an example to view in a comparative manner. I could have plugged any draw weight into that slot, but chose 45# because it seems a common hunting weight. (A person with Excel skills could make a whopper of an interactive chart ... "The Human Spine Chart" ... that you could plug any figure into any archer's weight and then make the comparisons you wish to view.)

So please, don't take the charts as accurate in the real world of "180 pound average men shooting 45# bows". The charts are just for illustrative purposes comparing differing physiques against a single, random draw weight. People would have, no doubt, become peeved had I chosen "180 pound average man shooting a 30# bow"!

I'm sorry if this has caused any confusion. Like the original post states, this ain't science, but rather food for thought when discussing beginning draw weights for new archers.

 

Great effort Thin Man! :thumbs_up

I think those are good charts to help some people narrow down a draw weight they could be comfortable learning with.

I strongly believe...that any archer who has regularly shot their compound bow and wants to make the switch...can do so by multipling their bow's peak draw weight by .6 and .7

You are correct that there are other variables besides just body weight and current history involving archery. I know people much smaller than I am who are much stronger. Body weight isn't always a great determining factor of strength....but I most certainly appreciate your efforts in making some calculated generalizations.

Ray :shade:

 

Relatively new myself and I started out with 45#. From day one I could comfortably pull 45# all day long. Add just 6# and it becomes work fairly quickly. So bottom line is you just gotta ask yourself - how big a boy are you? :wink:

 

Not making an accusation at all but the question for the average novice shooter who might be able to pull #45 all day long is if he can hold it at full draw long enough to make checks in his form before he releases?

Can he do that all day long?

 

This is an interesting exercise and probably a good starting point, but of course the real world has to many variables to get onto a 2D chart. You probably need to add a correction for age.

At least in my case. With age I have become shorter, heavier, and weaker. Muscle tone takes longer to build and dissipates faster.

When I started archery a year ago I was asking myself what weight I should get. No help was available. 5 ft 11 , 195 lbs, 64 years old. I ended up with a 38 lb bow because that is what I could afford. It was a struggle to pull it back. I spent the first few months shooting but mostly using the bow as a training device. After about 6 months I could hold the bow at my full draw, which is less than 27 inches, so less than 38 lbs, for the suggested 30 seconds or however long I wanted.

I then acquired a longer bow at 40 lbs, only because I liked the length, the grip, and I could afford it. I would have preferred 35 lbs but could not find one at a price I could afford, fixed income sucks.

I would really have appreciated your chart efforts at the time.

 

True story....

I'm 60. Heat attack at 42, 5 stents now...'decent' shape after building house and landscaping.

A month ago I got back into archery, for the upcoming indoor season, after a 2 year layoff. Started off at my last weight, that I could hold forever, 35lbs, even knowing my 'comfort weight' is 32-33lbs but needed to tune heavier arrows. I was struggling with back muscles and breathing and couldn't do my proper checks (about 30 seconds) to get back to where I was so, got new arrows and lowered my weight back to the comfort zone.

I shoot A LOT of arrows a day, sometime 3-4 hours both on the blank bail and 20 yard target. Between my shoulders and back are so sore (muscle fatigue only) that it seems as though I can't even pull the 32lbs anymore and it takes a lot longer to warm up (muscles loss increases with age) and am now seriously thinking about going down under 30lbs...and I'd like to 'think' I am an experienced archer.

Love the chart and the work you have out into it. Now let's hope people get smarter and lose the tough-guy attitudes. Archery is a FINESSE sport...not weight lifting.

I'm taking an archery break......

 

True story....

I'm 60. Heat attack at 42, 5 stents now...'decent' shape after building house and landscaping.

Love the chart and the work you have out into it. Now let's hope people get smarter and lose the tough-guy attitudes. Archery is a FINESSE sport...not weight lifting.

I'm taking an archery break......

I admire your wisdom, but would also encourage your motivation. From what I see, and from what aging I've experienced myself, it at least seems that much of the degradation has to do with lowered expectations, inactivity, and injury related to stress that exploits degradation due to inactivity, downward spiraling we go.

I would suggest, in all sincerity, cooking up some slow, gradual, and never-ending strength conditioning of sorts. Jack La Lane, or whoever he was, was doing more pull ups than I can do when he was 80. Get on it bud! Time to catch up!

 

What I do know is that a bow that is 5# to light is easy to shoot accurately, one that is 5# too heavy is very difficult to shoot accurately. Now what that draw weight is varies by person, but better to error on the light side and work your way up slowly. 30#@28" seems to be about right, smaller shooters don't draw as far so it works out to a bit less; big guys pull a little over 28" and 30# so it works out for them also.

 

Different movement, in most cases, sure, but the muscles, I believe, are the same ones shared by many exercises.

Granted, as my gymnastics coach used to say, "Training is specific." And, without the finesse of good form, we make the wrong muscles work a whole lot harder.

However, seems to me that drawing a bow has a lot of similarity to a bent over dumbell row, particularly with the elbow positioned at 90 degrees to the body.

Plus, if I'm all sore up from handstand pushups, pull ups, or those particular rows, my shooting sure does suffer Shoulders, back...

 

Going out on a limb here, with absolutely nothing but personal opinion from years of experience shooting these darn things.

I’m convinced the metal aspect of archery is more important than the physical, and there’s too many variables from individual to individual to recommend even a range of weights to begin with.

To my notion, every archer, especially the beginner, should shoot a bow they can completely overpower and dominate both physically and mentally. If a bow dominates, or even stresses an archer, he’s doomed for difficulty and frustration. I should know. :^)

I believe archery is a game of operator control—complete control.

 

I’m convinced the metal aspect of archery is more important than the physical,

Completely agree! :thumbs_up

and there’s too many variables from individual to individual to recommend even a range of weights to begin with.

That's why I say 'cookie cutter' advice is OK...BUT...the more a person factors in the different individual variables...the closer and more accurate the recomendation can be.

It's absolutely ridiculous to recommend that every archer HAS to start with a 30lbs. bow or lighter.

To my notion, every archer, especially the beginner, should shoot a bow they can completely overpower and dominate both physically and mentally. If a bow dominates, or even stresses an archer, he’s doomed for difficulty and frustration.

:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:

 

Training is specific." And, without the finesse of good form, we make the wrong muscles work a whole lot harder.

This says it all. Archery is a finesse sport, not a power sport.

It's not power muscles that allow those little Korean women to shoot up to a thousand arrows a day on 45lb bows, it's technique using the right muscles. You have to learn that on a lower-weight bow to ingrain it properly.

Physical toughness/strength doesn't mean squat in archery...mental toughness rules.

 

So.. a guy like T-Bone could shoot the 45# bow and feel like 5#? lol

 

I only see one downside to a person starting "too light", and that's buying an extra set of limbs. From a financial stand point, that's an extra $100 a person might not have or want to spend.

However, that's nothing compared with someone wanting to "start right" and buying a very expensive custom bow they can't handle, or buying a compound bow that after being all fitted is twice as expensive, or someone buying a bow that's too heavy that they lose interest in and never use again.

Let's say you go take down. There are several great bows out there where the initial investment for a whole bow would be about $300-400. These are not starter bows, these are bows that would compete and hunt. Say you buy one in the hunting weight you want (45-50#) and an extra set of very basic limbs for another $100. At most, you've got $500 in a bow. Not just any bow though, a bow you can hunt with compete with, and learn on- and teach others on if you want. Also, that $500 bow is not going to suddenly become worthless next year when the new model comes out. Take care of it and you're able to usually sell it for most of what you paid, and you can also get more limbs later if you want more weight or even less, or something different (recurve to longbow or vice versa).

Don't get me wrong, I understand the draw to a beautiful one piece bow, but even then you can usually get a nice one piece and an extra lighter bow to practice on (Sage for example) for less than one bow still. I've only personally met maybe a handful of guys shooting compounds who started with less investment that didn't have to upgrade in a year or two when their skills outclassed the bow.

Really, it's a financial venture that's safer than a lot of stuff we spend money on these days, especially given how many people are going ILF.

 

I only see one downside to a person starting "too light", and that's buying an extra set of limbs. From a financial stand point, that's an extra $100 a person might not have or want to spend.

:thumbs_up

An archer's financial situation is something I always consider when making a suggestion as to what may be the proper draw weight for them to start with....especially bowhunters, where draw weight definitely plays into their GOALS.

Ray :shade:

 

Kegan,

There is another aspect to this.

Many, dare I say most, people who shoot high-end, over-weight bows and carbon limbs won't be able to reach the rigs potential without having the skills to learn properly in the beginning. Thinner strings, faster limbs, high-end risers etc are all hyper-active, whereas a simple, low-weight bow is more of a stable learning platform. It's like you or I stepping into a Ferrari and dreaming we're race car drivers? The focus these days seem to be on speed and how much you are willing to spend to 'hope' or fit in.

I think Limbwalker was talking about the points he scored with wood limbs in a thread I looked at last night.

 

Many, dare I say most, people who shoot high-end, over-weight bows and carbon limbs won't be able to reach the rigs potential without having the skills to learn properly in the beginning. It's like you or I stepping into a Ferrari and dreaming we're race car drivers? The focus these days seem to be on speed and how much you are willing to spend to 'hope' or fit in.

I agree...but be careful not to let those thoughts completely control the advice you give. Each person is an individual with varing circumstances. Draw weight is allot like horsepower :wink:

Ray :shade:

 

Ray, I agree that for many bowhunters starting out, a good middle of the road weight doesn't make too much of a problem, and if the heart is set on a one piece it usually works out pretty well (at least it has in my experience). It's a fair analogy, and I think Brad is partially right about not getting the most out of the bow. I don't see it being a design issue, but more so of a draw weight or value issue. If you're shooting a bow you can't control well, you won't be getting the most out of it no matter what it is- even a Sage that's too heavy won't shoot worth a darn if you collapse every other shot and pluck your hand every other.

I just think that people make that extra $100 out to be a lot more daunting than it really is when a lot more money is spent elsewhere. I know when I was teaching my fiance to shoot her stubborness to go down in weight resulted in a loss of about $65 in arrows the first three months, and they were the inexpensive "youth" arrows from 3Rivers. I've seen a lot of shooters do the same thing their first times out. The money saved in arrows alone should make the extra set of "training limbs" worth a venture.

 

Funny you mentioning arrows Kegan!

I just spent about $250 on Platinum Plus (1816 and 1916) arrows in the last month, hoping I could shoot the 35lbs like I did two years ago. While tuning I either broke or lost them all in the lake. Then I bought 6 Game-getters for $40cdn. Only broke one so far from a hit after being logged in a stump already and having a ball. Now however, I am waiting for 30lb long limbs and going to start with some cheapo Jazz arrows until I get things right.

Live, spend and learn.