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Discussion Starter #1
Holy [email protected]!! I just read on a general discussion thread "crossbows in archery" a crossbow shooter call a compound shooter an "elitest"!!! Some of those crossbow shooters think that pulling a trigger is just as hard as shooting a "hand bow" (thats trad and compound bows). Trad shooters are now getting lumped in with the compound people by crossbow people and the crossbow people want to be called archery people.:mad:

Have your people call my people:D :D

Hasbro
 

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In deed. I am a poor compound shooter trying to become an enlightened stick and string shooter. I can tell you it is a hard jump and I shoot a compound good but the stick and string is another level. I went to the compound cause the gun held no challenge now the compound has lost it's challenge and I am looking to the stick and string but this is truly a challenge. It will test my hunting skills this year to get them in close for a shot.
 

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Biggame, welcome to the challenging side of the string. Yup, it's harder in most ways, but also a lot more envigorating. Next thing you know you'll be looking at the compound shooters as "un-enlightened" shall we say. I'm a longbow shooter who is dabbling in the compound world some and I'll have to say it is fun also... but. There is nothing like walking around the woods with a bow that weighs but ounces and lets you shoot in mere nanoseconds without even thinking about it. Ahhhh, that is archery for most of us I think.
 

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I just hope I can get me some accuracy. I seem to be shooting to the right right now when I am consistant. It is hard for others to give me advice cause I like my idol Fred Bear am left handed so everything is backwards. When it feels like I am right on it is just shooting to the right about 4 to five inches. If I get around that I think I will be in there. I know it ain't the bow I just can't figure out what it is.
 

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BG -

You will do it. Period.

At the range on Saturday, a guy came in with a compound, decent sort, and we start talking. He said, what you're doing is a lot harder than what I'm doing, (meaning recurve/no sight or release, and OK I was having a good day). And I was thinking, What I was doing was a lot easier than shooting his style. All I have to do is focus on the target. The only difference is, it may take a few (hundred) thousand arrows to get it that way. It does happen, and everybody gets there in their own way and time.

Just stick with it, and it will get easier.

Viper1 out.
 

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I got all the best equipment it is just a matter of shooting it and shooting it. I like that some since I so enjoy shooting. I like to go shoot as well as I like to hunt. Should I stick to ten yards till I am always dead on before I do any 20 shots at all?
 

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You don't need all the best equipment... that's just the compound shooter in you talking. As long as you've got it tuned well so that you shoot to your own ability without blaming said equipment.

10 yards? Yea, shoot a lot at the closer side, but mix it up. It's supposed to be fun and you are calibrating your eye/mind remember. I'd spend a lot of time blind bale shooting too so you get the "feel" into your head of what it should be like. Get that into your head first. They say it takes a minimum of 3000 repititions to get muscle-memory. (there's my combat pistol education coming out: draw, repeat, draw, repeat).

Mostly just keep it fun and the rest will come. And remember, this endeavor you've started on is a conquest that lasts a lifetime. Just hang in there and don't expect too much too quick. You'll get there.
 

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Although it's difficult to say without observing I suspect right hits for a lefthander might occur when the anchor is maybe just a tad away from the face during the release. Something to check maybe?
 

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Regarding crossbows, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about those things, which gets especially complicated when one notes they seem to be undergoing their own modern mechanical tackle innovations.

Crossbows aren't rifles that shoot arrows. They have their own idiosyncrisies that are best experienced before one pontificates about them. For example, they have a very short "power stroke" which accounts in no small part for their relatively high draw weights. They need that extra draw weight to equal, let alone exceed, the performance of handbows at much lower draw weights.

They also have their own peculiar history of development, however, because of their association with poaching, they might also have a good deal of excess baggage to deal with when they're considered, or more likely, not considered for hunting.

And it's perhaps important to remember that they are in some respects more traditional than the English longbow, if that means anything, being utilized extensively during the Han Dynasty in China for example. That Dynasty was more or less contemporary with the Roman Empire in the Occident.

They also have a native tradition in the Southeast where they were more or less independently devised by Cherokee as a way of using a bow for a person no longer accustomed to it. Fairly long bows were mounted on rifle stocks and the strings were released by a very simple falling block action, that has been often duplicated by little boys attempting to create their own versions of the crossbow.

One thing I think certainly makes sense. If hunting is allowed with mechanical bows with 80 percent letoffs, then it hardly makes sense to ban or denigrate crossbows for the same purpose. That degree of letoff makes those compound bows nearly as mechanical as any crossbow. The only difference is the absence of a stock and since many shooters who use the compounds hold them with a crooked bow arm and wrist sling, it's pretty clear that there isn't much hand holding involved really. Which is probably why some people call compounds vertical crossbows.

I also think it would be mistake to suggest that any of these disciplines is necessarily easier. As previously mentioned, crossbows have their idiosyncrisies and the same could be said of compounds. There might be a different skillset involved in each case and some of us prefer the skillset associated with the traditional handbow rather than either of the other two forms of tackle.

Trying to shoot a traditional bow the way you'd shoot a compound or crossbow will probably make things a good deal harder than simply getting to know the idiosyncrisies involved and acquiring the appropriate skillset to deal with them.

Is that hard? Well, I think it might be hard if you've never done it before and it certainly might take longer in many cases to acquire the traditional bow skillset sufficient to get a comparable degree of consistent accuracy one can get with a compound or crossbow. But I sometimes wonder when I observe how quickly people can get on target with compounds but still scatter arrows frequently.

I think the learning curves might be a little different with different plateaux and different slopes at different times, that's all.

In any event, it's important to distinguish tackle so we don't mistake a crossbow for a handbow or a compound for a traditional handbow. We can probably accommodate the diversity if we recognize and respect it by avoiding making seriously disparaging remarks about people's preferences. Joking about training wheels or triggers is one thing, but suggesting that people who use those things aren't as skillful, might be less easy to justify. In any event it really serves no good purpose if all it's intended to do is establish some sort of elitist attitude among the practitioners.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
No elitest here Seymour!!:D BUUUTT I once loaned a guy 50$ and he.... Rather, I once BOUGHT a crossbow and spent many happy hours shooting it. When I got the crossbow it had sight pins and 3 bolts. Within 10 minutes I was shooting softball size groups at 30 yds. I even had thoughts of how neat it would be to go hunting with it!!!:eek:
Crossbows may not belong in the firearm catagory but IMO they don't belong in the archery catagory either. So lets get to distingushing tackle before I resort to name calling!!:D :D
If crossbowmen want to stand alone, in a class of their own, with a hunting season of their own then show me where to sign!! I'll even donate some of my hard earn $$$ to make it happen!! Heck, I might even buy one (I own one or two of every thing else)!!!:D
But all I'm seeing is a fat uncle trying to make a hole at an already crowded dinner table!!!:D :D :D

Go ahead Seymour-Chew me up & spit me out-I'm thick skinned ya know!!:D

Hasbro
 

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This evening I shot at ten yards mostly and I tried canting the upper limb a little and that took out nearly all of the consistant right. I think it is like Semore said it is a matter of anchor and how far it is away but I anchor close to my face I guess canting the bow brought it even tighter in. I also lost two arrows. Went looking for them down in the woods and found three of the arrows my compound shooting friends lost on Sunday and none of mine. Ain't that how it goes. I decided to go train the horse instead of looseing a third arrow. Hard headed nag. Well we rode before it got dark any way. I think traditional archery is going to be as slow a process as horse training. As for the type of equipment I just meant I don't have anything that is going to make things harder than it should be. I didn't go out and start out with a 52 inch bow that was 60lb or something like that. I know that with what I have it is not the equipment's fault. The arrows are tuned and a good archer could nail anything with it.
 

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I have no desire to dine on you, Hasbro. For all I know you don't taste good even with chilis. :)

And I concur with your point about seasons maybe. However, it gets perilously close to the attitude that might deny compound shooters participation in the archery season as well. If we want to lobby for that, it might be a good thing in the longrun, perhaps allowing them and the crossbowman a very crowded season indeed. But if the tackle is as good they think, they'll be out of the woods the first day having handily tagged their buck or doe before noon.

But of course that doesn't usually happen because there's more to it than tackle.

I think one point of all this is that no matter what constraints are established, there's always somebody pushing the limits and at some point we need to decide when that push has become a rupture. This is the point at which we get into an enormous dispute with people that the level of participation allegedly provided by the modern mechanical tackle practitioners offsets their puncturing of the envelope.

The general question of principle then becomes, if enough people do it, does that make it right? I rather doubt it simply because if that were true, then why have any constraints or any hunting regulations for that matter? Simply leave things to some version of the laissez faire whatever and layoff the game wardens.

I would be comfortable being constrained to my current tackle which has no wheels, stabilizers, arrowrests or pressure buttons, mechanical releases or sights. And I rather think most modern tackle practitioners would be just as comfortable in their treestands festooned with blaze orange ribbon high enough above the common rifle rabble so that if anybody shot them out of the tree, it would be presumed to be a case of murder not negligient homicide. But I recall years ago instances of people being shot off of running ATVs as well being shot out of trees and none of these people carried bows.

Bow season too has produced a number on unaccountable "accidents", usually at least one every year where someone is shot at ranges short enough to read a license plate, so one wonders how it's even possible to suggest the shooting was accidental with a straight face? But people do and they walk when they probably should be doing hard time at some penitentiary. One wag observed that if one wanted to commit murder with virtue impunity, a good venue for that would be hunting season, regardless of the weapon involved.

Now pistol hunters, who are in some respects limiting themselves, allegedly, to very similar range limitations as bowhunters, have no problem participating during the regular season and, while blackpowder special seasons have become more prevalent, presumably because buckskinners like to wear their buckskins uncluttered with blaze orange vests, there's really no practical reason they couldn't participate during the regular season too.

Only when discussing compound archers or crossbowman do we seem to have a problem here. It might be interesting to see what the reasoning might be for insisting on special seasons for them.

In the past we've justified special bow seasons because of the inherent limitations of bows. That's getting harder and harder to do when those inherent limitations are being allegedly overcome.

I don't think we can continue to have it both ways, and, for my part, I'd just as soon have it the old way, limitations and all, not because I'm elitist but because some way or other I fancy myself as a sportsman expected to do things in a sporting way, not a winning no matter what way, but I suspect others might disagree.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Many will disagree!! But not me!!

Hasbro
 

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Thanks for the endorsement, Hasbro. We'll see what sort of bonfire I've lit.

However, that's really not my purpose. I'm genuinely curious to know how modern tackle practitioners justify pushing or puncturing the envelope and why that entitles them to a special season. From a practical standpoint, it might be good to get the arguments rehearsed for when they have to be presented to game commissions.

I'm also curious to know how we could define a bow in a manner unambiguous enough to preclude abuses.

I recall some years back running across what was termed a linear bow. This was basically a spear gun that fired arrows. I don't think it ever made the cut as a bow and quite frankly it seemed to be a very engineered solution to a non-existent problem.

I sometimes think of compound bows as similar highly engineered solutions to non-existent problems, that only benefit by having limbs as opposed to an elastic band to launch the arrows. Otherwise they too might have failed to make the cut as bows.

In any event, distinguishing between crossbows and compounds is getting more and more problematic I think, so it'll be interesting to see how people justify banning the crossbow while allowing the compound during special bowhunting seasons.

Just to keep things stirred up a bit, would an atl atl or arrow or dart throwing stick qualify as a bow? Would it be legal for hunting during bowhunting seasons? Why or why not?

Incidently, I'm not advocating banning people from bowhunting season, just people who don't like to use bows. During regular season they're free to use anything they want that conforms to legal taking regulations during that season and I encourage them to do that if they don't want to deal with the limitations of archery tackle.

In the past, I had hoped that compounds might be useful as a training aid, hence my reference to them as bows with training wheels, but I'm beginning to conclude that they will never really be much good for that sort of thing because people have little incentive to treat them as such when they're recognized as true handbows.
 

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I don't personally feel that crossbow hunters should be allowed in the same season catagory as able bodied archers but I do strongly feel that all hunters should stick together.

Bear baiters are on their way out with the trappers, who's next? If your only gripe is equipment, then maybe you should rethink your arguments and pick your battles a little more carefully.

If a guy wants to hunt with a crossbow and he don't interfere with me and my recurve, he doesnt hurt me one bit.
 

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X-bows

My suggestion for the X-bows would be to put them in with the muzzleloader season. Its not really a bow, but not really a gun. I would make it a hybrid(so to speak) season, muzzleloader and X-bows. But thats just my 2 cents
 

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Very well then, why don't you want crossbowman in the same season you hunt? In what respect would a crossbowman interfere with you in your season?

Regarding bear baiting and trapping, I suspect we're dealing with something else again.

Shooting game animals over bait has generally been dismissed as inconsistent with rules of fair chase. That an exception was made in the first place for bear hunters is somewhat difficult to explain I think.

In the case of trappers, that might be more of a occupational issue since trapping is rarely done for sport and so it would be outside this discussion I suspect. I think the issue there is why trapping is subject to sport hunting regulations rather than subsistance hunting regulations.

Sooner or later hunters are going to have to justify why they hunt and why other people shouldn't be involved in regulating them. Hunting stopped being an unregulated right after the game was nearly extinguished by market hunters and unrestrained development in the closing years of the 19th century.

So the reason why we're subject to regulation now is because people were unable or unwilling to exercise self-restraint then and apparently that's still a problem we need to address, so let's stick together and address that shall we?

That way we won't have to pick battles because there will be little reason to have battles with the non-hunters in the first place if we can show we can discipline ourselves. Quite frankly that's not a trivial issue or unattainable goal although it took considerable sacrifice on the part of wildlife managers to save hunting.

That sacrifice shouldn't be degraded because some people just can't be subject to reasonable limitations or they demand shortcuts to acquiring the requisite skills for participating in the sport.

People decry the decline of educational, occupational or other standards all the time and nobody worries about sticking together. They worry about getting the standards met.

Maybe that's a good attitude for us to assume for a change. It's not like it can't be done. It already has been done. We just need to keep that up so the contributions of dedicated hunters aren't sacrificed on an alter of ego or laziness.

We might still get regulated out of existence because there will never be enough of us left to provide the sort of political clout that's needed to secure the sport forever, but I can almost guarantee that will happen sooner if we take on allies who can't control themselves enough to bely the justifiable criticism non-hunters level at us.

When people see somebody purporting to be engaged in a hunt using primitive weapons unload a cluster of gadgets most of those people couldn't identify outside of a machine shop, then it's not going to help our cause because they won't buy the primitive pretext or the pretexts for sport hunting in general for that matter.

I have watched, with considerable consternation, as bowhunting went from a sport with widespread public support because people perceived it as more sporting and fairer to the game animals than gunhunting to a sport getting the same flack as the gunhunters have received.

I have watched muzzleloading hunting go from a sport well received by people because it maintained some semblance of tradition to a sport dominated by inline ignition weapons firing modern saboted bullets with telescopic sights that are virtually indistinguishable from the weapons used during regular rifle season.

Quite frankly I don't see how to convince people to buy into the sport hunting cause under the circumstances and that's what disturbs me most. So if you can justify it, please do. Because I'm fresh out of excuses.
 

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Actually if you go back to the original thread that i posted under crossbows in archery, you would see how i feel about it truely. I was merely offering something to the table. Personally I dont care what anyone uses as long as its legal and doesnt interfer with others enjoyment of the sport.
 

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Biggame,
At some point, I got tired of hunting for arrows in the woods and built myself a serious wood backdrop out of salvaged wood (and the wood pile). You might consider it as a real time and frustration saver. I built mine some 8 feet high and 20 feet long (well ok, 8 feet long actually but then there is that wood pile...)

As for your discovery about canting the bow.... experimentation is how most of us have learned because there isn't just one right way to do it. Of course, if you cant the bow too much you'll wind up torquing the string (bending it out of plane) and that will mess up your shot. Also, you are more likely to hit your bow arm with the string (the reason why traditional archers wear those serious leather arm guards instead of those bikini guards I see being sold for the compound bows).

About that business of shooting at ten yards..... mabey a good idea but why not try the longer shots right now? One thing about shooting at very short ranges (aside from not losing as many arrows) is that you do not get a very clear picture of the arrow's true trajectory. At ten yards, the trajectory is more flat than ballistic. Of course, you might want to invest in some hay bails to catch the arrows that miss (assuming the livestock doesn't eat your targets the way they do with a friend of mine).
 
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