Sure they are great.....



....for bowfishing!

 

Beendare, not the solid ones. LOL

Have you never shot the old hollow glass shafts? Probably you're too young. Think you have to be a fossil like me to remember them.

 

Anyone calling me a youngster is OK in my book- grin

As I recall when guys commenting they switched to Aluminum because they were straighter with tighter tolerances and closer in weight. They didn't measure straightness in thousanths of an inch back in the fiberglass days. I think the fiberglass arrows will hold a bend too.

Everyone was shooting alu by the time I started shooting.

 

They make heavy carbon shafts that are not stiff in spine. The Heavy Hunters by Goldtip are a good example.

 

BD, you must have something with the straightness issue concerning glass. I do remember they would bend in the heat of a summer day if left in a car backseat or some other hot spot. I had forgotten about that until you mentioned straightness.

Like I said, they were like wood in some respects, bend all over the place.

You're right, let's go fishing instead. LOL

 

K -

Very few people back then wanted "heavy" arrows, and the durability of glass arrows wasn't the greatest.
I don't recall them ever warping due to heat.

And for the record, "straightness" has more to do with marketing than accuracy (or rather precision).

That being said, I still have Microflights, Bear Kodiak Supremes and even old RobinHood glass arrows in my racks.
Some never used and some have seen better days....

Viper1 out.

 

K -



And for the record, "straightness" has more to do with marketing than accuracy (or rather precision).



Viper1 out.

Please check this and see page 5:

http://basciuk.strzelec.legnica.pl/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/WA_Coach_Seminar_London_GT20111.pdf

I'm guessing that Hoyt's engineers don't know what they're talking about?

 

There is no comparison over the old fiberglass shafts vs. various new carbon fiber shafts. I remember shattering and splitting so many of the MicroFlite shafts that we gave up on them. I believe it was Shakepeare that had a spiral wound glass shaft that was stronger (and heavier) that held up better, but aluminum arrows were the hot ticket at that time and that's what we went to.

 

Bender -

You mean the same guys that sell formula bows?
And yes, Hoyt (Easton) sells arrows too, right?
Like I said, marketing.

For any one else, most decent Olympic shooters take spine consistency first, weight consistency second and "straightness" is a distant third.

Viper1 out.

 

............. spine consistency first, weight consistency second ............ Viper1 out.

Overall how does the spine consistency of mid-priced aluminum arrows compare to the spine consistency of mid-priced carbon arrows?

How does the weight consistency of mid-priced aluminum arrows compare to the weight consistency of mid-priced carbon arrows?

I already know that aluminum arrows tend to be straighter than carbon arrows.

Carbon arrows are lighter than aluminum arrows of equal spine. In my opinion, based on personal experience, carbon arrows are tougher even in real life usage situations compared to aluminum arrows. Carbon arrows are skinnier to be affected less by wind and for deeper penetration (I don’t think that this matters much in real life). Carbon arrows supposedly (based on slow motion videos) recover from archer’s paradox quicker and, thus, retain more down range energy (I doubt this really matters and would be largely nullified by using light arrows).

Unless carbon arrows have much greater spine consistency and weight consistency than aluminum arrows, it seems that the real carbon advantage is that of being lighter at a given spine.

I found that carbon arrows were tougher, but aluminum arrows are plenty tough enough for me.

FIBERGLASS ARROWS?
I shot fiberglass arrows for a long time. I did like the translucent yellow or green appearance (they were pretty). I always worried that an undetected flaw might create dangerous fiberglass shards upon arrow failure during release. I did not trust myself to consistently twist, flex, and bend the fiberglass arrows in order to ensure that they were safe. I switched to aluminum as soon as aluminum became affordable.

 

My fiberglass arrow history repeated itself.

I originally switched from fiberglass arrows to aluminum arrows due to my unreasonable phobia of mutilations from shards through my fingers, hand, wrist, and forearm of my bow arm.

Many years later I switched from carbon arrows to aluminum arrows due to my unreasonable phobia of mutilations from shards through my fingers, hand, wrist, and forearm of my bow arm.

I find the straightness issue interesting because that was the erroneous reason that I finally switched to carbon arrows.

I was slow to switch to carbon arrows. I thought faultless arrow straightness was crucial to any retained accuracy. Unless arrows were incredibly precisely consistently straight, then any slightly less than straight arrows could be expected to fly willy-nilly.

I routinely used a commercial spinner to check arrow straightness. It is now amusing that I discarded many aluminum arrows after much usage because I could barely detect that they were less than absolutely straight. It was rare that I actually bent an aluminum arrow. Most were discarded due to not being perfectly straight.

I was finally convinced to switch to carbon arrows so that carbon arrows would never slowly become less straight than their original straightness due to heavy usage.

I immediately found that my new carbon arrows were received wonky. They wobbled so much as to literally jump off the spinner. I was then told that straightness was no longer actually believed to be important.

I exclusively shot crooked carbon arrows for three years. They did seem fine. I did not break or bend any. I switch back to aluminums due to worrying about shards.

 

Bender, thx for posting that....it was interesting.

So Easton says Aluminum is still more spine consistent than the avg carbon shaft.....must be the reason why I'm not a world class shooter- grin

 

fall-

In most cases, you're not going to be able to beat good aluminum arrows (xx75/P+ or X7s) in tolerances. Pretty much a given.
The real question is how much of a difference will looser tolerances make and at what level?

In my experience, at the 20 yard and under (maybe even the 40 yard and under) range, almost any "decent" production arrow is be better than most shooters can realize.

At longer distances, then the details start to factor in more and more, IF and only IF the shooter is capable of exploiting the tighter tolerances. The last part is the key. GOOD Olympic shooters using X10's or similar arrows (over $600 and sold in matched dozen sets) will cull out as much as 30% through testing at distance.

BTW - those good aluminum arrows with tight advertised tolerances (straightness) may not retain those tolerances after a few years of hard shooting. Oddly enough, they still shoot pretty darn well.

Viper1 out.

 

.............In my experience, at the 20 yard and under (maybe even the 40 yard and under) range, almost any "decent" production arrow is be better than most shooters can realize............Viper1 out.

Thanks Viper1

Based on your information plus my skill level, I would probably do fine just picking up sticks found on the forest floor – LOL.:smile:

I will remain with Easton XX75 Aluminum Camo Hunter Arrows.

I have a few dozen 1816, 1916, and 2016. They are all 30 inches long, having 125 grain points, and three of four-inch feathers. I do have some other various arrows, but those are my mainstays.

In general it seems that one or another of 1816, 1916, or 2016 will work fine out to 20 yards for any one-piece recurve or longbow with draw weights between 30# and 55# regardless of spine chart recommendations.

This is again probably because of my skill level.:smile:

 

One word

Splinters

 

Back in the day there was more than one method of manufacture for fiberglass arrows. All that I tried couldn’t stand up to a hard impact…and would mushroom at the point.

That said, in recent years I’ve picked up a few old Shakespeare “Rifled Shafts” which are of a construction that I’d never seen before. The shafts are spirally wrapped…and that, at least, would appear to offer a resolve to the problems that arise from having all the glass fibers aligned lengthwise.

I’ll probably never come across enough of them at full length to test them out…but I’d be inclined to consider it a more favorable means of construction. All I got, Rick.

 

If think too hard about catastrophic arrow failures, I'll freeze up at full draw. Ha ha ha. Funny because it's true.

I've already had one arrow blow up on me upon release, and I try not to think about it. Luckily, I was unharmed, but the thought is seriously spooky.

The only reason I don't shoot aluminums is because they don't hold up well to my stump shooting. I also don't know a thing about straightening them.

 

James, alloy shafts do not lose their spine faster than carbon. In fact they are better from the start than carbon and evidence shows wear on carbon shafts from target abrasion can, and does, impact spine on carbon whereas it does not effect alloy shafts to any measurable degree.

I don't know where you get your information.

Lots of guys including me only shoot alloy indoors at 18 meters. I don't think you've ever been to a competitive environment in your life.

 

I got my information from a top Olympic archery coach. Would you like to see the link? I've yet to hear anything about target abrasion wearing down a carbon arrow causing it to be weaker. Where did you get that information from?

The spine tolerences with modern carbons is actually quite good if you put out the money for a decent quality shaft such as a carbon express.

 

fall -

I'm fond of xx75s as well .

The difference between them and x7, isn't as much as people (read - Easton) would have you believe.
Only issue is that in their (Easton's) infinite wisdom, they no longer make xx16 or thicker walled shafts in x7s.
A lot of times, that becomes the determining factor between a xx75 and x7.

Viper1 out.

 

James, see the guy above me with the fighter jet avator? Viper is his name. He coaches Olympic archery and has for many years, has written respected books on the subject, has forgotten more about archery tackle than I can remember.

Read his stuff if you don't believe me. Viper is somewhat kind-hearted. He'll set you straight and do so like a gentleman. No better resource does this forum have for technical information about gear in addition to proper archery form.

You won't listen to me or others. If you don't listen to Viper than you're beyond help and respect for anyone here. No person I've seen online in a long time disseminates so much miss-information as you. You're harmless to the knowledgeable but very damaging to the neophyte of which you are one.

 

^^^^^^^
Have to respect a guy who will put his money where his mouth is

 

James, like I said, you're my favorite poster because you're slightly unhinged and wholly misinformed.

BTW There's a guy on here who shot in the 1988 Olympics with arrows he used for several years before the Games. They had tens of thousands of shots taken with them. He would be smiling to know guys toss their arrows away after every event. He goes by "limbwalker". You should PM him. See what he thinks of your theory.
I've never seen a man or woman trash their X10s after one season let alone one event. Some get culled but nobody tosses them away.

Target archers shooting past 20 yard indoor distances do need a certain amount of weight but that can be attained with pure carbon. They use alloy cores not for added weight. They use it because it's more consistent in spine and manufacturers can form alloy into a barrel taper shape before it's wrapped with carbon fiber.

Do you really think a 200 dollar longbow can shoot as well as a mid-range 800 dollar ILF rig? You can't be serious. With every post you expose yourself. Of course this makes it fun for me.

 

Maybe in 1988 they did not toss their arrows after large events but this is common practice now at high level cream of the crop Olympic Archery.

Also it's nearly impossible to make an all carbon arrow that is as narrow in diameter yet just as heavy as say, an X10. The reason why they use alloy cored arrows is because it is heavier than carbon and can be made very narrow with the tightest of spine tolerances from the get go.

Building an all carbon arrow that is as small in diameter as an X10 yet weighs just as much is near impossible. Also, you'd be kidding yourself if you think the top guys would shoot any worse using relatively small diameter 100% carbon arrows if they were culled.

Another reason why they use aluminum core arrows is because in most field's they have to use a metal detector to find arrows that have missed the target. It is against some club rules to use an all carbon arrow.

The bottom line is that none of the top archers uses aluminum arrows.

Also do you think the top ILF archer can out shoot Byron within 20 yards with their ILF rig while Byron uses his longbow? I don't think so.

Until someone can out shoot a hooter shooter than we can talk about people out shooting other people using different bow's.

My offer still stands. You use your ILF rig that you spent a lot of money on and I'll use my $200 longbow and we will compare scores.

 

A challenge was thrown out.. a duel to the end. If an $800 bow will automatically out shoot a $200 bow let's see it. You have been at best patronizing and at worst condescending to almost every post James has put up here. He's challenged you straight up man to man. Put up or lay off. No one likes a bully.

 

Nobody likes an idiot either. The very thought a cheap longbow can mechanically outshoot an ILF rig of any price range is absurd.

Some of us understand that. No contest needed.

 

Back in 1973 I shot my 1st deer with Micro-Flite arrow and MA-3 broadhead and Wing Redwing Hunter bow I had been using the arrows for a couple of years but they were not very durable, then I tried Gilmore glass arrows they were about the same, but as I remember I think there was a lawsuit brought up against one the fiberglass arrow makers, but for me I started using Easton aluminum arrows and never look back then 1984 shot wood arrows for about 5 years then I went back to aluminum then switch to carbon in 1999 and still using them they are pretty hard to beat for hunting

 

did we ever have a shootoff? this thread is like a book with the last page torn out! lol