[zenarch]

A thread has been going on about Yankton and what to do about making shooting a nationals on very difficult ranges more doable for the average archer. Several good ideas have been put forward and I'd like to summerize one of them in a poll format. The results will be part of my next article in The U.S. Archer and also be brought to the attention of the NFFA powers that be. One thing, when casting your vote be sure to consider the entire field archery family, from young to old and fit to out of shape, not just yourself. This poll is meant to try to guide the NFAA in gaining back the membership numbers they had prior to the introduction of 3D.
This is not a 3/5 day forum, which can be discussed elsewhere.

Here are the 3 choices I've come up with.

1 - Leave everything the way it is with 28 targets for field, hunter and animal and a 560 possible score.

2 - Shoot the round in 14 targets per day segments for the field and hunter and 28 targets for the animal round day. This would get the shooting time, which is now a minimum of 5 hrs. on the range, down to half of that and allow for some other recreation for the archers as well as the non shooters, and also beat the heat and wind which come up in the afternoon.

3 - Modernize the field and hunter rounds to better suit todays more technical shooting style eg. Range finders, inclinometers, hand held computers, etc. The International round would be the basis for the changes to be made but the rounds would be shot in the woods on ranges like we shoot now. Here are the changes being proposed.
The field round would be reduced to 20 targets of three arrows per target, for a total of 60 arrows and a 300 possible score, which fits in nicely with the indoor scoring.
The 80 yd walkup, the birdie, the 15 yard and the 45 walk up would be dropped, eliminating the extra time taken by the walk ups and the 15 yd shot which is basicaly a waste with today's accuracy. The Pro's could use the Expert scoring (which in reality means little to their score) or score a bonus point for an X which would definetly separate the men from the boys. This round should take between 3 - 4 hr. and with an 8AM start, get us off the ranges by noon.
The animal round would be left intact but reduced to 20 targets.
The hunter round would lose the birdie, the 15-14 yd, the 32 fan, and the 53 walk up. The 32 fan and the 53 walkup cause most of the wrong target posting than any of the targets we shoot and would save lots of false starts for that reason alone. The 23-20 yd would be shot at 23 yd only as would the 19-17 yd be shot at 19 yd only. This eliminates 2 time consuming, do nothing walk ups. The shortest distance shot would be dropped from the 70 and 64 walk ups and the 58 walkup would be a straight 58 yd shot, saving another walk up. This leave two fans, two walk ups and 6 fixed distance. As with the field round, the pro's could use the X ring as a bonus.

I think this is the direction we have to go in to moderize the game in our hurry up world and would also take some of the sting out of the more radical ranges, such as Yankton. This is just a start and a lot of work would have to be done to finalize a major change such as this but isn't it about time we updated our game. As a final note all record holders in the 560 round would have their record written in stone, which would be a nice thing if you've got one of the records.
Joe Bauernfeind

 

[Macaholic]

Field archery isn't broken, just too many options for those who like to shoot archery. Changing the size or number of targets is crazy. Promote what we have and enjoy:darkbeer:

4) replace field target butts with life-size replicas of politicians, keep the yardage bricks. Known distance foamie shooting:wink:

 

[Archersteve]

I really don't think the time on the range is all that bad. I spend just as much time in a 3-D shoot and shoot much fewer arrows.

I think we just need to get people that have never shot anything other than animals and 3-D to try field. That usually hooks them the first time.

Now, to get them to try, we need good ranges available.

 

[I BOW 2]

Joe, if we are really taking about increasing the popularity of field archery. then the more we "Dumb" it down to a "Side" event at a national level, the less people will want to experience the whole thing. National level anything is supposed to be above and beyond what is normally found at the home office!:wink:

If we are worried about the little extra time it takes to range and adjust our sights for each target, why dosen't the NFAA put together a little "Golf" style yardage book for each target. It could have the yardage, the corrected yardage for the angle, the angle itself and the host club could sell these as part of the registration packet. Then my brain wouldn't hurt so much before I shoot!:tongue: :darkbeer: Ken

 

[Jbird]

Better Yet

I think that a change to 20 targets with 4 arrows shot at each would get the job done. I would keep the 80 yard walkup and bunny target and the 70 yard walkup and bunny on the hunter. Eliminate the 19/17, 15/14, and whatever else is necessary to get down to twenty targets. This should be for the Nationals ONLY. This same round could be optional at the Sectional and club level if it caught on. The proposed round in choice three should be introduced at the club level and see if we can draw any additional archers by eliminating the 80 and 70. People who go to the Nationals know what Field Archery is and like it the way it is. They might not mind the 20 target/4 arrow round each day when you have to shoot in Yankton like conditions.
Start shooting at 7:30 or 8:00 am and you could shoot the 20 targets with most of the things the std round offers and be off the course by 11:00 am before it gets hot enough to fry eggs on the yard markers.
Jbird

 

[nub.]

While I would be all for making field more user friendly, I wouldn't want to sacrifice the Bunnies. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone complain about them. Seems to me they only complain about the 80. I like em all, I voted leave it alone. Now would I be for assigning seniors/masters the less fatigueing courses? You bet.

 

[archerycharlie]

I voted too leave it alone also. Ya wanna make it more user friendley make courses so as to be able to use 4 wheelers and golf carts :wink: :darkbeer: <<rootbeer AC

 

[centerx]

Heck Joe I'm not sure were I stand on this

When I travel to a shoot I want to shoot. That's why at Nationals and Vegas I sign up for the pro-ams and anything else I can get my hands on . Shooting 60 and out just don't sound as appealing to me

However, I also agree in the summer the current field format seems to be just a tad long from a comfort standpoint. It's like Golf 9 is to short and by the 18th hole I'm tired of it . However Like golf I would rather shoot to many then to few. Fortunately I get to swing the club many times when I golf

I would not mind getting rid of the close ones and the walk up's do seem counter productive. You can tell that this round was created with instictive shooting in mind. I do however like the long shots. In fact I think we should encouge people to practice at these longer distances. I would not even mind having a whole separate "tournament" just around the 80 yard target

However if I have to vote on one of these 3 options I would chose #3 BUT as I mentioned in the other thread I would HIGHLY encourage the NFAA to have MANY side "tournaments" that people can enter in For example

The clay pigeon team round one night

And then since we eliminate the 80 yard target maybe a 36 arrow 80 yard slam the next evening for example

And like I mentioned even a 900 American round national championship would be fun

The only other thing I can think of is to make it a 4 day tournament and shoot it "as is" such as

Day 1 Field and 7 animal targets
Day 2 Hunter and 7 animal targets

And so on . Once done you have a 28 H / 28 F and 28 Animal score. It would be 63 arrows a day

 

[Guest]

There is nothing wrong with what you have, how can we go from 56 targets per day down to 14 and honestly say we have progressed, sure there are alot more things for archery to compete against but lets get real here archery is about shooting arrows not seeing what else we can do instead of shooting.

I think if the NFAA went to 3 days fri-sun and started at 8am would be about the best they could do. I know I am not going to shoot a tournament that has absolutely no international recognistion, dropping targets and arrows isn't my idea of an archery event

 

[Archery Power]

15 target round

Leave every thing as it is but add the 15th target

Field 30 yard walk up 30' 25' 20 ' 15'

Hunter 28 yard walk up 28' 23' 18' 13'

shoot 15 targets instead of 28 targets

This leaves every thing as is and still have a 300 point round with 4 arrows per target

What every you do stay away from the 3 arrow international round I don't like it at all

 

[fibonacci4u]

How about a mix

I like option 3 but I would like to see the 80 yd walk-up shot and the bunnie shot stay. I, personally, like the NAA format where 1/2 is marked and the other 1/2 is unmarked. I know that a lot of "spotties" don't want to judge yardage, though. At our state field championship we shoot a full field on day one and 1/2 of hunter and 1/2 animal round on day 2. It still requires stamina, but is not quite as taxing. -- Ike

 

[brtesite]

A thread has been going on about Yankton and what to do about making shooting a nationals on very difficult ranges more doable for the average archer. Several good ideas have been put forward and I'd like to summerize one of them in a poll format. The results will be part of my next article in The U.S. Archer and also be brought to the attention of the NFFA powers that be. One thing, when casting your vote be sure to consider the entire field archery family, from young to old and fit to out of shape, not just yourself. This poll is meant to try to guide the NFAA in gaining back the membership numbers they had prior to the introduction of 3D.
This is not a 3/5 day forum, which can be discussed elsewhere.

Here are the 3 choices I've come up with.

1 - Leave everything the way it is with 28 targets for field, hunter and animal and a 560 possible score.

2 - Shoot the round in 14 targets per day segments for the field and hunter and 28 targets for the animal round day. This would get the shooting time, which is now a minimum of 5 hrs. on the range, down to half of that and allow for some other recreation for the archers as well as the non shooters, and also beat the heat and wind which come up in the afternoon.

3 - Modernize the field and hunter rounds to better suit todays more technical shooting style eg. Range finders, inclinometers, hand held computers, etc. The International round would be the basis for the changes to be made but the rounds would be shot in the woods on ranges like we shoot now. Here are the changes being proposed.
The field round would be reduced to 20 targets of three arrows per target, for a total of 60 arrows and a 300 possible score, which fits in nicely with the indoor scoring.
The 80 yd walkup, the birdie, the 15 yard and the 45 walk up would be dropped, eliminating the extra time taken by the walk ups and the 15 yd shot which is basicaly a waste with today's accuracy. The Pro's could use the Expert scoring (which in reality means little to their score) or score a bonus point for an X which would definetly separate the men from the boys. This round should take between 3 - 4 hr. and with an 8AM start, get us off the ranges by noon.
The animal round would be left intact but reduced to 20 targets.
The hunter round would lose the birdie, the 15-14 yd, the 32 fan, and the 53 walk up. The 32 fan and the 53 walkup cause most of the wrong target posting than any of the targets we shoot and would save lots of false starts for that reason alone. The 23-20 yd would be shot at 23 yd only as would the 19-17 yd be shot at 19 yd only. This eliminates 2 time consuming, do nothing walk ups. The shortest distance shot would be dropped from the 70 and 64 walk ups and the 58 walkup would be a straight 58 yd shot, saving another walk up. This leave two fans, two walk ups and 6 fixed distance. As with the field round, the pro's could use the X ring as a bonus.

I think this is the direction we have to go in to moderize the game in our hurry up world and would also take some of the sting out of the more radical ranges, such as Yankton. This is just a start and a lot of work would have to be done to finalize a major change such as this but isn't it about time we updated our game. As a final note all record holders in the 560 round would have their record written in stone, which would be a nice thing if you've got one of the records.
Joe Bauernfeind

jOE , THERE ARE COMMITTEES FORMED RIGHT NOW for the very things you are saying.:darkbeer:

 

[Macaholic]

jOE , THERE ARE COMMITTEES FORMED RIGHT NOW for the very things you are saying.:darkbeer:

so what you're saying is NOW is a good time to contact your state director to make sure your voice is heard at national. Right?

Looks like 80% of respondents so far think we already have a great game to play:wink:

 

[brtesite]

so what you're saying is NOW is a good time to contact your state director to make sure your voice is heard at national. Right?

Looks like 80% of respondents so far think we already have a great game to play:wink:

talk to OBT:darkbeer:

 

[Jbird]

Delicate Balace Here

Too few arrows and us hard cores won't think it is worth the trouble. Too many targets and too long in the blast furnace and we will start to loose the older folks and those who aren't in marathon condition.
Jbird

 

[zenarch]

so what you're saying is NOW is a good time to contact your state director to make sure your voice is heard at national. Right?

Looks like 80% of respondents so far think we already have a great game to play:wink:

How many of the 80% were in Yankton shooting in the 95 degree heat last week.

CenterX,
Your kidding I hope. All anyone wanted to do after shooting for 5 - 6 hours in that heat and those hills was to get a shower and down a brew.
Joe B.

 

[field14]

I voted option #3. However....I also liked the option proposed to go to the 15 target round...which is ALREADY and OFFICIAL NFAA round.

This comes from way back when Ohio was one of the FEW STATES that used the 15 target halves and 30 target rounds...The only problem there was that your scores on your scorecard had to be "adjusted" for elimination of the extra target...and it was really tough to figure where to put people from Ohio at the Sectional and National level. Went thru that adjustment process for 3 years before Ohio finally went to the standard 28 target round.

Due to space limitations on most ranges being built....I really favor getting rid of the targets as mentioned by Joe in his original plan....We have WAY TOO MANY potential shooters that avoid the field archery BECAUSE OF the 80 and the 70 yarders...They don't mind 65, but MOST will balk at the 80 and the 70.

I sure hope that the committee that BRTESITE says is already on this figures something out. I know it is a major overhaul and will mean clubs have to "rebuild" or really "re-organize" their field ranges....but in many cases it is simply a path adjustment and bale removal anyways. 8 fewer targets to maintain is a pretty significant reduction in manpower and manhour requirements for the hosting clubs; let alone the fewer targets to shoot, walk, score, and "analyze."

We wouldn't see the 5 ot 6 hour rounds anymore and the supposed "marathon" image the NFAA now has because of the 112 arrows is too many syndrome excuse being offered by MOST of today's newbies.

I see Joe's point about the walkups being a waste...great insight, Joe!

JBird....everyone seems pretty happy with the 60 arrow rounds....people are VERY happy with the reduction of arrows shot for the special round developed for Pittsburgh too...only 60 arrows a day instead of 90. The other part is the consistency of multiples of the 300 score being possible...everyone understands that much easier than the odd-ball 560 number?

field14

 

[mjs]

You can leave the round alone but make the courses more user friendly and make it a archery tournament instead of a phyisical endurance contest. I do think there are some changes that could be made to the round to make it more interesting from my point of view. Eliminate the bunny shot, make the walk ups just one yardage,how about using a colered target such as the one used in the lake of the woods round, how about the elimination of all the inclinometers and range finders and cut charts.I know that there is no chance of these things ever happening because the NFAA works to slow and there is to many directors and councilmen that believe the old way is the best way. Just my opinion

Mike

 

[OneBowTie]

I voted option #3. However....I also liked the option proposed to go to the 15 target round...which is ALREADY and OFFICIAL NFAA round.

This comes from way back when Ohio was one of the FEW STATES that used the 15 target halves and 30 target rounds...The only problem there was that your scores on your scorecard had to be "adjusted" for elimination of the extra target...and it was really tough to figure where to put people from Ohio at the Sectional and National level. Went thru that adjustment process for 3 years before Ohio finally went to the standard 28 target round.

Due to space limitations on most ranges being built....I really favor getting rid of the targets as mentioned by Joe in his original plan....We have WAY TOO MANY potential shooters that avoid the field archery BECAUSE OF the 80 and the 70 yarders...They don't mind 65, but MOST will balk at the 80 and the 70.

I sure hope that the committee that BRTESITE says is already on this figures something out. I know it is a major overhaul and will mean clubs have to "rebuild" or really "re-organize" their field ranges....but in many cases it is simply a path adjustment and bale removal anyways. 8 fewer targets to maintain is a pretty significant reduction in manpower and manhour requirements for the hosting clubs; let alone the fewer targets to shoot, walk, score, and "analyze."

We wouldn't see the 5 ot 6 hour rounds anymore and the supposed "marathon" image the NFAA now has because of the 112 arrows is too many syndrome excuse being offered by MOST of today's newbies.

I see Joe's point about the walkups being a waste...great insight, Joe!

JBird....everyone seems pretty happy with the 60 arrow rounds....people are VERY happy with the reduction of arrows shot for the special round developed for Pittsburgh too...only 60 arrows a day instead of 90. The other part is the consistency of multiples of the 300 score being possible...everyone understands that much easier than the odd-ball 560 number?

field14

OBT needs to be in on these conversations......

mjs....i dont know what your saying....because in my brief experience with the NFAA.....ive yet to find anyone that has been involved with the NFAA to have nothing but open ears.....i havent seen this "old school" attitude yet....now i did witness some good ole boy networking....but not a old school attitude....

we all have a great information gallery right here...yet nobody seems to really voice any kind of concrete voice for any real change....lots of talk about change to change...but no voice of reason or voice of numbers...

so if yall want change.....get your act together and voice it.....dont sit here and take pot shots.....and than say...."the same old directors do nothing"....OUR JOB IS TO LISTEN TO YOU...THE PEOPLE...not to make up things WE want...but rather to represent YOU...and what YOU WANT....

 

[zenarch]

Field archery isn't broken, just too many options for those who like to shoot archery. Changing the size or number of targets is crazy. Promote what we have and enjoy:darkbeer:

4) replace field target butts with life-size replicas of politicians, keep the yardage bricks. Known distance foamie shooting:wink:

If it ain't broke why are there less than 100 shooters at the NY state shoot when we used to have 400? Why do we draw less than 100 archers for the Mid-Atlantic sectional? What is the ratio of kids to old farts at the Nationals? Why do most 3D archers I talk to say they'd like to try field archery but there are no ranges to shoot?
Somethings broke and putting your head in the sand and saying "It's fine" isn't going to fix it. We've tried a return to the old target face; it didn't work. Now we're trying the 3/5 day option. The juries still out and we won't know until we do the new format in '08.
Times change and we have to be willing to roll the dice and gamble on a format change. Sure we may lose some of the old diehards but we also might attract the field archers of the future. I'm hearing an awful lot of "I's" and not enough "we's" in the replies. We have to act for the good of the sport by bringing the games we play into todays fast paced, tech driven world.
Joe B.