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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don’t have the greatest pictures at the moment, will update tomorrow to better pictures.

These are some photos from a local indoor tournament last night (blue trx in the black tshirt in the photos). I’m shooting pretty decent, averaging 298-299 with a few 300’s sprinkled in, but I’m having issues with fatigue after awhile my front shoulder creeps up. I’ve played with my draw both shorter and longer to land where I’m at now, the bow holds very well until I start to fatigue after about 50 or so arrows. I know ideally to get a good idea what could be happening I need these pictures without all the other people standing in the way and the pictures to be right beside me, I’ll get a few more later tonight or in the morning. I just want to get the conversation rolling and maybe nuts&bolts or Padgett will chime in.

It also appears my peep is to low, due to the head being tilted but when I draw and anchor eyes closed that is where my head is positioned I see through the peep perfect.

I’m going to Lancaster in a few weeks so I want to be the absolute best I can be. Also included a reduce face round I shot at 10yds tonight in my garage.





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Right handed shooter.
Tightest hole pattern is bottom left, for a RH shooter.
WHY?

Cuz, you did not micro tune your draw length in between module sizes.
So, when you TWIST your upper body for bottom left target
and when you bend forwards for bottom left target,
your TWIST LEFT and bending DOWN for bottom left target takes up the extra draw length.

You have to UN-twist for the top middle target,
and now your sight pin float is LARGER cuz you are STRETCHED out for the bottom left target
and you are LEAST stretched out for the top middle target, hence the much LARGER (relatively speaking) hole pattern.

Bottom right target, there is ZERO twist to the left, you collapse slightly to the right,
cuz you are right handed, but you have to bend FORWARDS for bottom right target
and this stretches you out a TINY bit (not as much STRETCH and TWIST for bottom left)
so cuz you rotate RIGHT for the bottom right target
there is ZERO stretching, and the ONLY stretching comes from bending forwards for bottom right,
so your bottom right target is the 2nd best hole pattern, or
depending on your perspective,
2nd from WORST target face.

So, what u TALKING about..this all "stretched out" for bottom left target???,
and what u TALKING about...this "least stretched out" for middle top target???

How much "stretchin" we talking about for bottom left target?
Answer.
Bout 1/16th inch.

So, u sayin my DRAW is only 1/16th inch STRETCHED OUT longer (my body is stretched out 1/16th inch), for the bottom right?

So, u saying my DRAW is only 1/16th inch TOO LONG, for the top center target?

Yuppers.

Ain't nobody can see the difference in DRAW for only 1/16th inch!
Nope, not true.

K.
Then, there are no 1/16th inch DRAW length modules.
Yes, you are correct there.

So, how do ya change the draw only 1/16th inch?

Like this.



Basic target setup.
Bow is in SPEC, and tuned to deliver 29-inches of draw, for the 29-inch draw module.

Here is the 20 yd results, full distance, full size target.



So, let's test a bareshaft. BARESHAFTS will tell the ENTIRE story about draw length, draw size FIT to the shooter.



So, let's see what happens when I change the draw, 1/16th inch LONGER....bareshaft misses LEFT of the fletched group, and I am right handed, so I grew the brace height 1/16th inch LONGER, which means the draw also increased 1/16th inch.



Let's grow the draw 1/8th inch TOO LONG, out of spec on PURPOSE.



Let's grow the draw 1/4-inch TOO LONG, out of spec, on PURPOSE.



Bareshaft was fired two times, for each experiment to prove a point. So, let's see the NEW fletched group at 29.25-inches of draw.



AFter a sight pin windage adjustment, and a sight elevation adjustment,
the BEFORE and AFTER group at 20 yards.



YEah, but I'ma shoot a mini 3 spot, at 10 yards.

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Yuppers, u are.

So, what does DRAW length tuned to the 1/16th inch gotta do with anything?

Well, my BEST student did my stress test at 20 yards...FULL distance,
with a FULL size target. A stress test is where you have only 1 arrow in your quiver, and you fire that 1 arrow
for 30 shots in a row. Yup, gotta walk back and forth to the target, and pull that ONE arrow out of the target, and walk all the way back to the shooting line. Fire that ONE arrow again, and walk all the way to the target and return to the shooting line. Slows down the shooter, and increases the mental pressure.



He stopped after ONLY 21 shots. DIDn't make it to the full 30 shots. CAn ya blame him?
He was shooting GoldTip TRIPLE arrows....carbon fiber arrows, 27/64ths diameter.

So, work on your form,
lean BACKWARDS less,
drop the draw 1/16th inch less. THis means UNTWIsT the cables, to GROW the ATA longer, out of spec on purpose,
until your brace height is 1/16th inch LESS than spec. When you get brace tuned 1/16th inch LESS than spec,
your draw will also be 1/16th inch LESS than spec.

BUT, the string won't touch my nose, cuz the DRAW is not out of spec.

Nope. You lean FORWARDS, so the string touches your nose, with the 1/16th inch SHORTER draw,
you lean BACKWARDS less,
you PUSH the riser into the target, get AGGRESSIVE with the bow arm, and PUSH with the bow arm into the riser
while PULLING and ripping the bow in half with your release arm.

No more babying the bow, sitting in the valley.
RIP the bow apart into two.

Pull HARDER into the wall, before you trigger your release. This will cut your sight pin float MUCH smaller.
AFTER you tune the draw 1/16th inch SHORTER than current.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
WORK on the draw length, 1/4-inch shorter minimum.

View attachment 7545963

You are hotting the equivalent of 8-rings, 9-rings and 10-rings at 20 yards.
Ok thanks greatly nuts&bolts. When the wife wakes up I’ll get some full body pics and see if I’m leaning back at all.

I have terrible posture just standing so what feels like straight up and down to me could very well be leaning back slightly


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Ok thanks greatly nuts&bolts. When the wife wakes up I’ll get some full body pics and see if I’m leaning back at all.

I have terrible posture just standing so what feels like straight up and down to me could very well be leaning back slightly


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No hat, no long sleeves, no jacket.
Wear shoes. Get bow hand HIGH enough, so that the arrow is dead level, parallel to the floor and ceiling.
Tape a camera phone to a ladder so the camera phone lens is at arrow height.
SLIDE the ladder far away enough, that the camera phone can see the ground, can see your shoes,
can see all of you and all of the bow.

THIS camera angle.



Camera phone lens needs to be square to you, not in front of you, not behind you.

Photo like this.



Goal is to tune the bow, and tune YOU the shooter (full draw position), so your 20 yd groups cut in half, minimum.
 

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So, Alan posts a bunch so I'll try to keep it simple and it really is.

Consciously PUSH the bow. Start out at a 45deg angle pushing the bow toward the floor. Shoulder down and locked. Keep that push going through your mind as you rais the bow and finish drawing. Think PUSH, PUSH, PUSH through from starting the draw to the release.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No hat, no long sleeves, no jacket.
Wear shoes. Get bow hand HIGH enough, so that the arrow is dead level, parallel to the floor and ceiling.
Tape a camera phone to a ladder so the camera phone lens is at arrow height.
SLIDE the ladder far away enough, that the camera phone can see the ground, can see your shoes,
can see all of you and all of the bow.

THIS camera angle.



Camera phone lens needs to be square to you, not in front of you, not behind you.

Photo like this.



Goal is to tune the bow, and tune YOU the shooter (full draw position), so your 20 yd groups cut in half, minimum.
Is this an ok picture?

I have a video from straight behind the bow if I can figure out how to add it



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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
No hat, no long sleeves, no jacket.
Wear shoes. Get bow hand HIGH enough, so that the arrow is dead level, parallel to the floor and ceiling.
Tape a camera phone to a ladder so the camera phone lens is at arrow height.
SLIDE the ladder far away enough, that the camera phone can see the ground, can see your shoes,
can see all of you and all of the bow.

THIS camera angle.



Camera phone lens needs to be square to you, not in front of you, not behind you.

Photo like this.



Goal is to tune the bow, and tune YOU the shooter (full draw position), so your 20 yd groups cut in half, minimum.
Here is a video. I know my head tilts over. That problem and the high front shoulder is what I’m trying to solve



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Is this an ok picture?

I have a video from straight behind the bow if I can figure out how to add it



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Joint Chin Shoulder Barbell Arm


1) drop draw length module 1/2-inch shorter
2) undo one d-loop knot, and re-tie the d-loop as SHORT as possible. Current loop is WAY WAY WAY too long.
3) move peep down, so the arrow nock rides your face MUCH higher, get nock all the way up to corner of mouth.

4) shorter draw module (1/2-inch shorter) will make string not touch nose.
So, to get string to touch nose again, with SHORTER draw module size, move peep down.

But, how much do I move peep down?
Keep moving peep down, until when you look thru NEW lower peep, the nock is touching corner of mouth.
Lower peep means arrow nock rides HIGHER on your face.
Arrow nock riding HIGHER on your face, will get string to touch nose again.

BUT, why do I gotts to drop draw in DRAW length?
I wuz measured.

Don't care. Group size, tells entire story.
Right elbow is WAY too low.
RIGHT elbow is below release wrist. THIS is why your bottom left target at 10 yards is bEST.
THIS is why (too long draw, and LOW release elbow) is why top middle target is WORST at 10 yards.

NEW doctored photo form will cut your group size.
 

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Here is a video. I know my head tilts over. That problem and the high front shoulder is what I’m trying to solve



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Square up your stance. Goto neutral stance, meaning tips of shoes are DEAD parallel to shoulders.

BUT, I heard that u are supposed to shoot OPEN STANCE????

Yeah, open stance ain't working for you. Look at the 10 yd group size for top center target.
Goto neutral stance, and drop draw 1/2-inch shorter
and make the d-loop as SHORT as you possibly can, to move release hand FORWARDS,
so the right elbow rises HIGHER than release wrist height.

Like this.

Joint Chin Shoulder Barbell Arm


Move peep down, so nock comes UP
and with half inch shorter draw module position,
the string will touch nose again,
and you will no longer have to TILT head sideways right to see thru peep,
cuz the shorter draw module size
will move the nock FORWARDS on your head
and the peep will move FORWARDS, further away from eyeball,
and you will be able to SEE thru the peep with ZERO tilting head sideways right
and all group sizes (at 10 yards) will shrink.
 

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There’s nothing at all wrong with your form. Look at two dozen random pros you’ll find very similar form to your own among them.

The difference between consistent 298-299 and 300 is between your ears. If you want to be the best you can for Lancaster, quit jacking around with internet guys who aren’t even shooting as well as you and go practice. Not go shoot, go practice. Work on how long you can hold the bow up, work on your shot execution, shoot 4 or 5 arrow ends and shoot 12 of them instead of 10. Build your endurance both mentally and physically. Also shoot competitively along the way to know what changes for you when your competing and learn to adapt in that situation to still be successful. Don’t touch your bow unless you know you have a real problem, and don’t let some random dude on the internet talk you into believing problems you don’t have. Including me…

D
 

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Agree with ace. If you’re already in the high 290’s and already shot a 300 in competition, we’re going to hurt more than we’ll help.

I second the suggestion of simply shooting more. If it’s conditioning, it’ll clear up on its own. If it’s a form problem, it’ll be pretty subtle, but you may find the correction of it just through trial and error.

lee.
 

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10 yd target results.

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So, double the group size for 20 yds. If the OP wants to cut the group size in half,
gotta do something different. JUST shooting the same ole way, will not cut the group size in half.

IF OP wants to find his TRUE accuracy potential, much work is required,
some bow tuning, and a lot of shooter work.
 

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Im not being rude in any way.
Take this for what its worth..
I have been working on my form for 2-3yrs. yes yrs. messing with draw length. chasing perfection. I have a high desire to learn and research EVERYTHING!
I just have such a desire to learn and want knowledge. But im not gaining very fast at all in my shooting.

So. here i am
Lets take for example The past few weeks shooting indoors 20yds. Im on the line trying my best to first execute the best possible shots i can.
second is my form. Running all kinds of stuff through my head, i have notes on top of notes and review them each time before walking up to that line to shoot a paper round.
3rd is where the arrow goes.

Most of the guys im watching beside me on the line. have the yips, the slaps, and horrible form. Im talking bad leaners, maybe bent bow arms, collapsed shoulders, drawing too much weight, i see it all man. I recongnize it all cause i seen it and researched it all.

Guess what there targets look like at 20yds…?
They look like the one you posted a picture of from 10yds. There is something more to shooting than just body mechanics. more than just bow setup.
I have NOT figured it out yet.… They are standing beside me pounding 10’s and X’s…. alot of these shooters are shooting high 290‘s and up to 300 with high x counts..

Some are shooting hunting bows and some fully decked target rigs. some with target bows but set up as “hunter” class. and they are shooting what i call good. NOT pro. but GOOD nuff...
way better than me. way bette… And my bow fits me better and my form looks better.
And my bow has been meticulously set up to the best of my knowledge. Not saying there is not set up good. I do t know cause there just the guy beside me on the line.

I do believe you will shoot better with… better form and good equipment setup...But there something else at play here. Maybe, just maybe. these guys have more self awareness or micro control of muscles? They can aim better, better eye sight? idk.
One thing the pros got on us ALL is a better mental game. They can shoot mentally tougher than ANY of us. They are like Navy seals on the shooting line.
I do know for sure that most guys i have read about who are GOOD shooters do have better than average eye sight.. Same with pro athletes. Its just what i have really noticed.

I can Barely get into a low 290’s on my good days on half a 600.
Im a 285 on averag kinda shooter with a hunter class type setup. But there is a guy there with the same thing. who looks worse and he have a ragged hole in the middle of all 3 yellows… so idk..🤦‍♂️

But i will give you the only advice i can. Thats your d loop, try shortening it up a small amount. I do think your release hand elbow may be kinda low.
 

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Alan,

Let me ask you this.
This man shortens his draw 1/2”. and shortens d loop length up. What happens to the direction of the elbow? Now im going to assume. because this has happened to me. Been down this road, that his elbow is now going to be pointing no longer straight back. But off to the right side. which in theory or is bad. (i see this out of alignment all the time on the shooting line) The elbow and bone of the arm at least mine will not continue to be inline with the arrow and JUST higher. No. It has to compress somehow.

That means swinging off to the right to keep the should from binding up.. Or being forced skyward consciously.
I have had this same thing happen to myself. If i had gone shorter and shorter. I have to force my draw elbow up higher. to get it to come around/ swing into alignment with the line of the arrow. It dont feel comfortable or natural or pleasant.
If i kept, or let it where it naturally wants to sit it’s pointed off to the right side.
The shoulder should both be low and relaxed. right.

Just curious ..




Square up your stance. Goto neutral stance, meaning tips of shoes are DEAD parallel to shoulders.

BUT, I heard that u are supposed to shoot OPEN STANCE????

Yeah, open stance ain't working for you. Look at the 10 yd group size for top center target.
Goto neutral stance, and drop draw 1/2-inch shorter
and make the d-loop as SHORT as you possibly can, to move release hand FORWARDS,
so the right elbow rises HIGHER than release wrist height.

Like this.

View attachment 7546314

Move peep down, so nock comes UP
and with half inch shorter draw module position,
the string will touch nose again,
and you will no longer have to TILT head sideways right to see thru peep,
cuz the shorter draw module size
will move the nock FORWARDS on your head
and the peep will move FORWARDS, further away from eyeball,
and you will be able to SEE thru the peep with ZERO tilting head sideways right
and all group sizes (at 10 yards) will shrink.
 

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Alan,

Let me ask you this.
This man shortens his draw 1/2”. and shortens d loop length up. What happens to the direction of the elbow? Now im going to assume. because this has happened to me. Been down this road, that his elbow is now going to be pointing no longer straight back. But off to the right side. which in theory or is bad. (i see this out of alignment all the time on the shooting line) The elbow and bone of the arm at least mine will not continue to be inline with the arrow and JUST higher. No. It has to compress somehow.

That means swinging off to the right to keep the should from binding up.. Or being forced skyward consciously.
I have had this same thing happen to myself. If i had gone shorter and shorter. I have to force my draw elbow up higher. to get it to come around/ swing into alignment with the line of the arrow. It dont feel comfortable or natural or pleasant.
If i kept, or let it where it naturally wants to sit it’s pointed off to the right side.
The shoulder should both be low and relaxed. right.

Just curious ..
If you look at his video, he tilts his head to the right, to see thru the peep.
Not good.

Cuz he has to tilt his head to the right, to see thru the peep, cuz the draw is too long,
this is why his bottom left target (3 spot) has the tightest group (smallest hole pattern at 10 yards)
this is why his top middle target (3 spot) has the largest group (biggest hole pattern at 10 yards)
and
this is why his bottom right target (3 spot) has the middle size largest group (between best and worst hole pattern).

Shortens draw 1/2-inch means he has to lean forwards, to touch string to nose.
Shorten d-loop means his right elbow swings up HIGHER, for better leverage, for tighter sight pin float.

No need to compress.
Just stand up straighter, lean backwards less. CAn keep right forearm inline behind arrow
just allow release hand to slide FORWARDS closer to riser
and
just allow right elbow to swing HIGHER than release wrist.

Joint Chin Shoulder Barbell Arm


Before and AFTER photo, complete with "hulk" green forearm.
He does not have much upper body lean backwards.
He DOES have to tilt his head LOW right (can see in his video) to see thru peep.

So, to avoid TILTING his head low on the right side to see thru peep,
the nock needs to run CLOSER to the riser (commonly called SHORTER draw module position).

BUT, if we move the draw shorter, string will no long touch nose!!!!
Yup.
So, you move the peep DOWN, so the arrow and the nock ride HIGHER on his face, and like MAGIC,
the 1/2-inch shorter draw will have string touching nose again.

BUT, the 1/2-inch shorter draw. He gonna have to scrunch his face down!!!
Nope, move peep down so the nock comes UP.

BUT, the 1/2-inch shorter draw...he gonna need to BEND his elbow (bow side) to get the string to touch his nose!!!!
Nope. MOVE peep DOWN, and the string will LIKE MAGIC touch his nose, with shorter draw
cuz the arrow and the nock will come UP the side of his face.

BUT, ain't NO WAY ima gonna change my anchor.
My anchor is my anchor. Ain't nobody gonna change MY ANCHOR. My anchor NEVER EVER changes.

K.

THen, if you NEVER EVER change your anchor,
then, the group size will NEVER EVER get any better than this at 10 yrds.

Automotive tire Wheel Automotive wheel system Font Recreation


So, if the OP DOES move his peep down...

Like this...

Joint Chin Shoulder Barbell Arm


IF the OP does drop the draw 1/2-inch shorter,
so the OP can keep his head VERTICAL (no more need to TILT head to the right, crooked right to see thru peep),
then,
just maybe,
the OP can cut his group size in half.
 

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Jordan miller.
I have a video for you to watch.
Look at your bow arm elbow in your pic. looks to be pointing down at the floor.
watch RC in the beginning of this video he described how the elbow position can effect the bow shoulder position.

 

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Im following ya. As you know me personally. Im a disciple of yours. Im just here to learn.

So, Lets ask this.

Whats going on with all these guys? why do so many guys lean…!!!?? I dont think it started with draw length.
There something else. all these guys and MYSELF included here.
I had bad lean an im telling you, you dont just lean forward and you got it...🤨

I have been trying to correct a rearward lean and its a real BUGGER!!
Whats probably going to happen here, is the head will lean forward,( he will be wondering why his dang neck hurts and has headaches after shooting), the front shoulder will collapse / and or the front arm will take a bend to it. slightly. Hopefully for him im wrong!

I think some of this stuff started when we all first started shooting and shot a little too much draw weight and we didnt have the front arm strength to hold up that bow and posture to stand up properly.

Some men are just more body aware then others. Im not one. i can say yep im standing straight up. Most my weight on front foot. Pic… guess what. im still leaning back!

I gotta wonder maybe this guy has bad posture? maybe he has a slouched forward head normally? Maybe all of us if we had worked on posture first. Then worry about shooting bow we would be better off? I really dont know.

Thanks Alan
Not busting ya here, just what im thinking. cause i AM and was and still am THAT guy..


If you look at his video, he tilts his head to the right, to see thru the peep.
Not good.

Cuz he has to tilt his head to the right, to see thru the peep, cuz the draw is too long,
this is why his bottom left target (3 spot) has the tightest group (smallest hole pattern at 10 yards)
this is why his top middle target (3 spot) has the largest group (biggest hole pattern at 10 yards)
and
this is why his bottom right target (3 spot) has the middle size largest group (between best and worst hole pattern).

Shortens draw 1/2-inch means he has to lean forwards, to touch string to nose.
Shorten d-loop means his right elbow swings up HIGHER, for better leverage, for tighter sight pin float.

No need to compress.
Just stand up straighter, lean backwards less. CAn keep right forearm inline behind arrow
just allow release hand to slide FORWARDS closer to riser
and
just allow right elbow to swing HIGHER than release wrist.

View attachment 7546588

Before and AFTER photo, complete with "hulk" green forearm.
He does not have much upper body lean backwards.
He DOES have to tilt his head LOW right (can see in his video) to see thru peep.

So, to avoid TILTING his head low on the right side to see thru peep,
the nock needs to run CLOSER to the riser (commonly called SHORTER draw module position).

BUT, if we move the draw shorter, string will no long touch nose!!!!
Yup.
So, you move the peep DOWN, so the arrow and the nock ride HIGHER on his face, and like MAGIC,
the 1/2-inch shorter draw will have string touching nose again.

BUT, the 1/2-inch shorter draw. He gonna have to scrunch his face down!!!
Nope, move peep down so the nock comes UP.

BUT, the 1/2-inch shorter draw...he gonna need to BEND his elbow (bow side) to get the string to touch his nose!!!!
Nope. MOVE peep DOWN, and the string will LIKE MAGIC touch his nose, with shorter draw
cuz the arrow and the nock will come UP the side of his face.

BUT, ain't NO WAY ima gonna change my anchor.
My anchor is my anchor. Ain't nobody gonna change MY ANCHOR. My anchor NEVER EVER changes.

K.

THen, if you NEVER EVER change your anchor,
then, the group size will NEVER EVER get any better than this at 10 yrds.

View attachment 7546599

So, if the OP DOES move his peep down...

Like this...

View attachment 7546600

IF the OP does drop the draw 1/2-inch shorter,
so the OP can keep his head VERTICAL (no more need to TILT head to the right, crooked right to see thru peep),
then,
just maybe,
the OP can cut his group size in half.
 
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