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#### "TheBlindArcher"

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Okay, so it is my understanding that the nodes of an arrow are [two] points where during the arrow's flex from launch to target follow each other in the line of flight [provided flight is tuned], and I have a basic understanding of a technique for identifying arrow nodes... But then what? What do you do with this information; why is it "important" to set up/tune? Are you trying to line up the node with the plunger, or having the plunger between the nodes; before/after?

Yeah, I'm probably not going to get a great ROI if I pursue the efforts, it's a curiosity/learning endeavor.

#### AzureSkydiver

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I've got a similar question. I thought that idea was to line up the nodes in your intended direction of flight, but then since an arrow is theoretically straight then wouldn't it just be a matter of lining up the arrow in the intended direction of flight? If so, why have the tip of the arrow a little bit outboard on a parallel shaft arrow?

#### "TheBlindArcher"

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I think, and that's the best I can say, is that while an arrow's flight is/should be straight between launch and the target, the tip and tail don't follow that straight line; they oscillate back and forth sort of snake like. I think there are some slow motion videos of recurve arrow flight on YouTube. I think having the arrow point center shot outside of the string [and there are several sides to this type of set up], is due to having the string roll off the fingers at launch [for those who advocate this type of set up]; the theory being that it causes the arrow to "come in line" as the string deflects off the fingers... There is also commentary regarding whether you set the point outside of the string based on a parallel or a barreled/tapered shaft.

But then again, I'm the guy who couldn't hit the floor if he dropped an arrow from his quiver, and I'm probably the only recurver who can punch themself in the jaw on a bad release, so have your grain of salt ready.

#### woof156

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But then again, I'm the guy who couldn't hit the floor if he dropped an arrow from his quiver, .
You're one of those too??-- I tho't I was the only one..... Interesting fun question what does the location of the node mean? My guess is their location tells us something about how the tip wt and fletchings etc affect the arrow dynamics.. Fun to do a node location on a shaft before adding tips and fletches and then after the arrow is built to see if it changes???? but a so what answer I don't really have. Just more fun with the physics of arrow flinging.. I wonder if marking the top of the arrow at both nodes so it can be seen as you draw would constitute a sight violation for BB??
_
PS I did this the other day-- found the node on a shaft then after point was added and the node shifted towards the point, did not fletch the back end but did add a nock it shifted back a bit- so based on this very antedotal test how you build your arrow might well affect nodal points- now what does that mean????

#### Redwing#308

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Halfway thru first cup of Jo and, knowing nothing…
Seems nodes would be equivalent to the intersections of a line drawn thru a sine wave. Force of string against resistance of point weight flexes shaft of X spine, at launch. The closer the halfway point between nodes is to center of shaft, the straighter the launch and, the sooner the arrow flex will resolve into straight flight.
If I got that right, steak for dinner!😄

#### lees

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Okay, so it is my understanding that the nodes of an arrow are [two] points where during the arrow's flex from launch to target follow each other in the line of flight [provided flight is tuned], and I have a basic understanding of a technique for identifying arrow nodes... But then what? What do you do with this information; why is it "important" to set up/tune? Are you trying to line up the node with the plunger, or having the plunger between the nodes; before/after?

Yeah, I'm probably not going to get a great ROI if I pursue the efforts, it's a curiosity/learning endeavor.
On the compound bow, the technique is to put the rest directly under the front node. This makes this point of contact more immune to the flexing of the shaft at the point of the release. This flexing always varies a little bit depending on any mistakes you happen to make, so doing this increases "forgiveness".

I actually got this idea from GRIV who says it helps tighten your groups at longer distances. I didn't believe it, but I tried it anyway a while back. Turns out it does have a measurable effect at the distances I've tried like 50 meters.

On recurve, you have to vary the shaft length to achieve this since the rest/plunger contact point isn't generally movable, which obviously changes your tune. So merely doing this to position the node isn't as beneficial as on compound, where you typically can move the rest fore and aft and leave the arrow alone.

So probably only a benefit to compounders with movable rests....

lee.

#### LTGentry

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Never heard of this, but as an avid student of physics and engineering I’m gunna follow along for the knowledge. Very cool.

#### stick monkey

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I would think that elite level shooters build their arrow with the node in front of the plunger and then tune the bow to the arrow and not the other way around. Collin Klimitchek once told me that you don’t want the plunger to be resting on the point shank when at full draw which leads me to think that the only real feasible way to do this is with either tungsten points with shorter shanks and extended clickers…stainless points would almost always necessitate a extended clicker to keep the point shank off the plunger…if you are shooting a short arrow your node placement is probably not optimal. This is all my personal speculation so take that what it’s worth…about 2 cents

#### Hikari

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Here is some interesting reading from Bow International:

Flex in Free Flight

Interesting quote from the article:

It is interesting to note that the point shank does not have a major influence on the arrow stiffness. Most of the shaft stiffness comes from the outer layer of carbon fibres and especially those near the middle of the shaft length. Most of the influence of the point on the arrow’s flexing frequency comes from its mass rather than its stiffness contribution.
And this:

Arrows: dynamic behaviour

Not sure there is much you can "do" with the information beyond simply understanding the dynamics of arrow flight.

#### DK Lieu

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Extremely useful for diagnosing contact problems in arrow tuning. This is especially true in light of claims that arrow charts recommend shafts that are too stiff. I coat the arrow shaft with spray powder when a contact problem is suspected. Shaft contact at the rear node is most likely a release problem, e.g. a problem with form. Shaft contact away from the node is most likely a frequency problem, e.g. a shaft that is too stiff or too compliant, or a non-ideal point or tail weight. If the problem is with the release, this must be fixed first before tuning can proceed.

#### calbowdude

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It seems to me that the front node should be in front of the plunger at full draw, rather than the plunger "in between" the nodes. My thinking (such as it is) is that as the node begins to go past the plunger at release, the arrow is guided without being kicked off the rest/plunger assembly. Then as the biggest point of flex makes plunger contact, the arrow is less likely to be sent away from the riser.

Conversely, the node being in front of the plunger results in a really big flex point compressing the plunger way more than in my first example, and less guidance from the rest/plunger assembly, and more likelihood of a horizontally errant shot. JMHO here of course, I thougt there were some high level archers with the same thought of having the node forward, but can't quickly find their posts both on AT and elsewhere.

All I know is that shorter arrows work better than over long arrows, especially in barebow. The arrows become unforgiving.

#### DNez2001

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It seems to me that the front node should be BEHIND the plunger at full draw, rather than the plunger "in between" the nodes
Agreed. With longer shafts, I will move the plunger to the front hole in the riser, to keep the node closer to the plunger. Tom Stevenson clued me in to this technique.

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#### calbowdude

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I gotta remember to move the plunger to the front hole. I have a bolt on rest, so not always one of my go-to options for tuning.

#### Rick McKinney

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It's not so important where the front node is at full draw, it's important when the arrow leaves the arrow rest. However, I would hazard to guess that most would not be able to notice a score difference at your level. Probably the top 500 in the world might, but really, work on your form if you want an improvement in score.

#### JSTTH5US

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Dorge from Firenock talks about these a lot. If memory serves me right you would mark the node and set your arrow up so that your rest is holding the arrow up an 1 1/2” or 1” from the node. So the node is 1 1/2” in front of the plunger. I’ll try to find that info and be more specific with the distance I’m sorry. That’s what I got from it.

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#### Seattlepop

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^
I think he meant that, in general, 1" to 1.5" of shaft in front of the plunger will cover most applications. At full draw, the node will be behind the plunger. This allows at release for some travel across the plunger before the arrow comes off the rest. IIUC.

JSTTH5US

#### >--gt-->

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Rick was generous by a factor of about ten. I would say it's more like the top 50.

‘A little learning is a dangerous thing’.

#### woof156

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^
I think he meant that, in general, 1" to 1.5" of shaft in front of the plunger will cover most applications. At full draw, the node will be behind the plunger. This allows at release for some travel across the plunger before the arrow comes off the rest. IIUC.
that would be for Olympic recurve right? since with BB we never draw back that far. So if this has real meaning then now as a BB shooter I have an excuse for poor arrow flight to the target.

#### Seattlepop

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that would be for Olympic recurve right? since with BB we never draw back that far. So if this has real meaning then now as a BB shooter I have an excuse for poor arrow flight to the target.
Actually, this would be an interesting topic for barebow. With barebow it seems that the quest for "point on" aiming means arrow lengths vary widely.

#### r_davis

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The first problem for bb is if an archer is good and consistent enough to tell if it is a tune issue or if it is just part of the inaccuracies of bb.

Nodes not being in the right places creates issues with the arrow jumping to the side at release one way or the other. But once again, how do we tell for most bb shooters?

It gets interesting talking about the rear node also- How brace height is basically the timing for the disconnect of the nock. If this is wrong then the rear of the arrow jumps as well.

This is a big problem for people seeking really fast setups shooting with fingers. The arrow just travels too fast to complete the cycle it needs to clear the bow properly and keep nodes where they need to be.

I believe this is leading to a lot of false tunes. Probably doesn’t matter for most except the highest level shooters but it sure wouldn’t hurt if everyone understood what’s going on.

There’s some really good slo-mo videos on YouTube that show what’s going on. Might be easier to understand to watch videos of highly tuned oly recurve set-ups. Everything is timed to perfectly clear the bow and keep nodes pointing to the target.

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