Archery Talk Forum banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
274 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
After reading here of requested for members to give bare shaft pics to help Dx other members issues I figured I would try shooting a bare shaft. I have shot my VXR28 through paper and I get bullet holes but wanted to try It just to see. Note, I'm a little tired as I shot a 3D course yesterday and some when I got home and today I wanted to beat the rain that was pressing so my consistency was not on par. I don't think I have any major tune issues because when I do my part the arrow goes where I want it. I didn't take any side view pics but for the most part they were parallel to fletched shafts. Anyways what you think.

20 yards





30 yards then it started to poor


Thanks Hray
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
49,655 Posts
After reading here of requested for members to give bare shaft pics to help Dx other members issues I figured I would try shooting a bare shaft. I have shot my VXR28 through paper and I get bullet holes but wanted to try It just to see. Note, I'm a little tired as I shot a 3D course yesterday and some when I got home and today I wanted to beat the rain that was pressing so my consistency was not on par. I don't think I have any major tune issues because when I do my part the arrow goes where I want it. I didn't take any side view pics but for the most part they were parallel to fletched shafts. Anyways what you think.

20 yards





30 yards then it started to poor


Thanks Hray
The fletched group could be tighter at 20 yards. If you are happy with the 20 yd fletched group, then, the bareshaft says don't change a thing. SERIOUSLY...take off the duct tape.
The purpose of a fletched group, in comparison with a bareshaft, is the bareshaft has CLEAN aerodynamics, nothing to disturb the airflow across the back end of the arrow shaft. DUCT tape, electrical tape, leaving the base of the vane, screws up the airflow, and defeats the purpose of this diagnostic test.

BUT, the lower weight without the duct tape, is gonna MESS up my dynamic spine. The bareshaft will fly WEAK, and we all KNOW that WEAK bareshafts miss to the RIGHT,
so the bareshaft with ZERO duct tape is gonna MISS HARD RIGHT? RIght? Nope.







No tape at the back end. 20 yards. Repeat test with no duct tape, and lets see the change in results, if any.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
274 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
OK. Thanks. will give it a try and post back
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
49,655 Posts
OK. Thanks. will give it a try and post back
We can compare the before and after test results. But, the end goal is always to try and get your fletched groups hitting tighter.
So, there is room for improvement for vertical miss pattern, and horizontal miss pattern. The bareshaft impact position, in relation to the fletched,
gives clues about what to do, for bow tuning.

Example.



Massive sky high bareshaft. Expert shooter never used to shoot bareshafts, so this was his first time as well, shooting a bareshaft. So, the fletched group is SUPER good,
but this expert shooter wanted to boost his x-ring count, meaning he wanted he TIGHTER fletched groups. So, notice no robin hoods, ZERO busted nocks. Diagnosed this as an arrow rest issue.
Gave the expert shooter some things to try.

AFTER test result at 20 yards, using just ONE fletched arrow in his quiver. Told him to shoot 30 shots with that one arrow. Yes, that means you gotta set your bow down, walk 20 yards to the target, pull out the ONE arrow, return to the shooting line, and fire again. He stopped at 21 shots. Didn't want to mess up his pretty target.



Yup, 70 year old expert shooter, shooting his Hoyt bow in his own hands, again and again. One arrow diameter groups. So, 21 robin hoods in a row, or 21 busted nocks in a row. The bareshaft with NO tape at the back end, tells me a story. The bareshaft impact location, and the angle of the bareshaft, in relation to the fletched arrow groups, tells me a really LONG story.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
274 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Here you go, and Thanks Hray



 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
49,655 Posts
So, the bareshaft with NO TAPE tells a much different story.
This photo we have mostly a vertical spread. So, I would tweak the bow tune, for better nock travel, tweak the cam sync (cam timing) to something different.
Most bows have two cables..(except the single cam bows). So, for bows with TWO cables...just pick ONE cable and adjust the twists in that ONE cable. You pick which cable. Don't matter which. One direction will improve your vertical miss pattern...either add 1/2 twist, or add 1 twist direction, or maybe remove 1/2 twist or remove 1 full twist.
At 20 yards, you will see an improvement in the vertical miss pattern. Ideally, the goal is to have all fletched arrows touching, or hitting the exact same vertical height of impact..maybe even a busted nock.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,645 Posts
Here you go, and Thanks Hray



Looks like a very slight nock low/right. Bump the rest half a fuzz to the left and down. Talking like 1/64" or less each way.
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
49,655 Posts
So, this photo, we see a bit of room for improvement in the vertical miss pattern (bareshaft hit high),
and we see a bit of improvement in the horizontal miss pattern. So, the story here, is FIX vertical nock travel first. Pick one of your two cables,
only work with that ONE cable, and change the twists...either add 1/2 twist or remove 1/2 twist. See what direction improves things, FLATTENS the fletched group
into a pancake, just one arrow diameter tall.

Then, after you get to a pancake shaped group, only 1 arrow diameter tall (or as close as you can get to one arrow diameter tall group),
then, work on the horizontal miss pattern. EASIEST way to shrink horizontal miss pattern is bump the arrow rest sideways a tiny bit. Maybe a tiny bump left
or maybe a tiny bump right, will tighten the horizontal miss pattern.

More advanced ways to tweak to shrink horizontal miss pattern? Yoke tune if you have yoke legs. Just half a twist in one leg, and see if things tighten up.
Even more advanced way to tweak to shrink horizontal miss pattern? Mess with top cam spacing, moving the top cam a super tiny amount left or right. We keep the total width of all the top axle spacers exactly the same total width...we just change the spacers width on the left, and we change the spacers width on the right, of the top cam.

So, even simpler? Tweak d-loop length longer or shorter. Yeah, moving the nock forwards or backwards on your head, changes your anchor, but there is a twist. MUST keep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as always. We want to point your release forearm in slightly different directions, at full draw, by simply growing or shrinking the d-loop length.



Looks the same to me. No difference. Well, look at the blue triangle at the tip of his elbow. I shortened the d-loop a little bit shorter, to SWING his right elbow
a little more counter-clockwise. Nock moved forwards maybe 1/16th inch or moved forwards maybe 1/8th inch. Ain't no way, that moving the nock FORWARDS 1/8th inch is goona do ANYTHING at all.

Well, here's proof. First photo. This bow in SPEC, at 29-inches of draw length. 20 yd group. So, "normal" nock anchor position.



Pretty normal-ish 20 yd fletched group. So, when I fire a bareshaft, yes, I aimed at the same bullseye, I get this result.



Bareshaft missed 8-inches left. Nope, not a stiff spine issue. Zero arrow rest moving, ZERo yoke tuning, ZERo cam shimming, no changing point weight. Nada. Just moved the d-loop 1/16th inch LONGER. I really twisted both cables, to grow the draw length 1/16th inch longer, but end result in the same. MOved the nock anchor position 1/16th inch FARTHER back on my head.



Bareshaft (fired twice) moved over 4-inches. So, let's see what happens when I grow the draw length 1/4-inch longer (or make a d-loop that is 1/4-inch longer).



So, moving my nock 1/4-inch farther back, moved my bareshaft impact nearly 7.5-inches. BUt, how did the fletched group size change, with a 1/4-inch change in nock anchor position (my right elbow swinging MORE CLOCKWISE behind my head). Before and after 20 yd group.





Arrows not touching at 20 yards, with BOW in spec, at 29-inches of draw length.
Arrows all touching at 20 yards, with BOW out of spec, at 29.25-inches of draw length. Well, in reality, the nock moved 1/4-inch FARTHER back, so you COULD do the same with a d-loop length change of 1/4-inch. BUT, longer draw length increased speed. Yup. But, longer draw length weakened dynamic SPINE. A 1/4-inch change in SPINE will not move a bareshaft 8-inches over to the right. I kept the same point weight, and shortened ATA, to easily grow the draw length 1/4-inch, cuz I was lazy to tie a new d-loop. This was just a test, to show what you can do, with simple nock anchor changes.

So, play with d-loop length, and see what happens. Maybe longer d-loop, maybe shorter d-loop will get your fletched all touching.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
274 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Thanks, I am going to repeat the 3 fletched and 1 bare shaft a few times over the next couple of days and refer back to the thread and make adjustments. I know I need to work on my release sequence and believe that adds to some inconsistency. Thanks Hray
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
274 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I couldn't stand it so I went out there and adjusted my rest 1/64 to the left shot and knocks all seem the same direction then I lowered the rest 1/64 and it looks tight. Granted I will repeat this process to confirm.



 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
49,655 Posts
Beautiful. RESULTS based tuning. You are on the right track. Now, just build new muscle memory, to make the new full draw posture SOLID.
So, I technique I use with my students. If you have ONE arrow that is not with the group, that is the "bad" arrow. Pull the arrows you don't like,
the arrow(s) outside the group. Return to shooting line, and fire the "bad" arrow(s). If the arrow is now inside the group (rotate the nock so a different vane is up on top),
NOW, you are done training.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,645 Posts
I couldn't stand it so I went out there and adjusted my rest 1/64 to the left shot and knocks all seem the same direction then I lowered the rest 1/64 and it looks tight. Granted I will repeat this process to confirm.



Awesome work. Now adjust your sight. Make sure to sight in your windage at your longest comfortable range to get a good precise sight in and then move up. It's not as complicated to bareshaft tune, most of the time, as some would have people believe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,645 Posts
Beautiful. RESULTS based tuning. You are on the right track. Now, just build new muscle memory, to make the new full draw posture SOLID.
So, I technique I use with my students. If you have ONE arrow that is not with the group, that is the "bad" arrow. Pull the arrows you don't like,
the arrow(s) outside the group. Return to shooting line, and fire the "bad" arrow(s). If the arrow is now inside the group (rotate the nock so a different vane is up on top),
NOW, you are done training.
Pretty sure he just moved his rest.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top