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Discussion Starter #1
Just as well stir the pot again lol.

Im fixin to shoot some more. Now that ive got this spine thing worked out. And i no longer have flyers that i cant fix. What about FOC?

My arrows are 22" right now im using igniter lighted nocks that weigh 40 grs and helical SK 200 helical vanes. I have 80 gr brass inserts installed and they shoot great with the FOC broad heads. I have some 50 gr and 30 gr alum.

So i haven't fired a arrow yet. What do you think ill see. No change shoot worse or shoot better?

POI will likely move im just looking at group size.
 

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Not sure because IMO much of it has to do with the exact bow and the indian behind it.

And in terms of the benefits of increased F.O.C. it's to my belief that there's more to it than just general accuracy.

That said, I am interested in seeing your results.
 

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With you shooting the 170 gr FOC, there is still enough weight forward to fly well. That said, in my experience I have found that 200 to 240 grs up front works very well. Now with the extra 20 grs or so of nock end weight the lighter (30 gr) insert may be marginal for long distance.

I look at weight forward on an arrow like a string glued to a rock. When the rock is thrown the string has to follow. The lighter the rock, the farther it will go with the same effort. Happy medium here weight vs trajectory.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Not sure because IMO much of it has to do with the exact bow and the indian behind it.

And in terms of the benefits of increased F.O.C. it's to my belief that there's more to it than just general accuracy.

That said, I am interested in seeing your results.
The Indian is staying the same lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
With you shooting the 170 gr FOC, there is still enough weight forward to fly well. That said, in my experience I have found that 200 to 240 grs up front works very well. Now with the extra 20 grs or so of nock end weight the lighter (30 gr) insert may be marginal for long distance.

I look at weight forward on an arrow like a string glued to a rock. When the rock is thrown the string has to follow. The lighter the rock, the farther it will go with the same effort. Happy medium here weight vs trajectory.
A lot of truth in this. We learned shooting trad bows. Extreme FOC had benefits. It let us shoot stiffer arrows. This helped because we still got the flex so the arrow could bend around the riser. And because it was stiffer it came out of archers paradox faster with less fletching dragging the arrow back straight.

Heaver FOC will cause a shaft to behave weaker on the shot. But on the other end hitting the target it behaves stiffer. Leading to better penetration.

But we didnt have a rail or the power we have with crossbows.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
That was quick and to the point LOL.

Heres what i did. I pulled 2 Brass 80 gr inserts ( i use hot melt) and replaced with 50 gr alum. I just randomly picked 2 tapps. That i checked yesterday on my other thread. Walked out no wind good rest and shot as good as i could. I held high using the 2nd hash mark on my XBR scope set on 10 power. It hit left about a inch from center. I went in and got the other arrow and shot it. It hit right about a inch past center. So a 2" group. So back in the house out comes the 50 gr inserts. I glue the brass 80 grs back in. I shoot one then the other same hole i mean the same hole.

All shots was using the same FOC head and lighted nock minus the nock inserts there glued in.

So LOL.
 

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That was quick and to the point LOL.

Heres what i did. I pulled 2 Brass 80 gr inserts ( i use hot melt) and replaced with 50 gr alum. I just randomly picked 2 tapps. That i checked yesterday on my other thread. Walked out no wind good rest and shot as good as i could. I held high using the 2nd hash mark on my XBR scope set on 10 power. It hit left about a inch from center. I went in and got the other arrow and shot it. It hit right about a inch past center. So a 2" group. So back in the house out comes the 50 gr inserts. I glue the brass 80 grs back in. I shoot one then the other same hole i mean the same hole.

All shots was using the same FOC head and lighted nock minus the nock inserts there glued in.

So LOL.
Doesn't surprise me at all. I've always advocated a heavier F.O.C. and for more than just basic accuracy. Windy conditions, better penetration, easier for the arrow to regain its path in the event of being slightly knocked off plane, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Its really starting to look like. Yeah i can reload you some shells for your rifle. And they will shoot better than some off the shelf. But your way ahead to learn to reload your self. Start with good components and tools. And load some up for your bow if you will. If your into splitting hairs lol.
 

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Agreed. I need to come up with a spine checker of some sort. Guess I need to start looking at youtube or the do it yourself section on here and build my own. Darn sure cannot afford to buy one.

The way I see it is this. Even though I buy spine matched Spinal Tapps, I can always use a spine checker on some of the lesser quality arrows I have, or in the rare case that's all I can get my hands on at the time.

Pretty sure that the stock Mission arrows I have that are fliers are due to being fletched up with the spine different from the accurate ones.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Agreed. I need to come up with a spine checker of some sort. Guess I need to start looking at youtube or the do it yourself section on here and build my own. Darn sure cannot afford to buy one.

The way I see it is this. Even though I buy spine matched Spinal Tapps, I can always use a spine checker on some of the lesser quality arrows I have, or in the rare case that's all I can get my hands on at the time.

Pretty sure that the stock Mission arrows I have that are fliers are due to being fletched up with the spine different from the accurate ones.
I built mine on the Crossbow press i built years ago. I dont need the press any longer but i used it as a string stretcher for reserving now its a spine checker too. And i square my shafts and insert faces with it also. I tore down a old weight lifting bench and cut up a wood working vice that was broke lol. welded it up and just started adding things to it as needed or wanted. I doubt i have $50 $75 in the hole thing. Out of pocket at the time :).
 

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i did some extensive f.o.c testing one time only to find after all the work i did....... I was able to achieve the same or even better results just by cutting my arrows down from 22" to 20".

kept all the same components too. Less spine variables as well.

and lost no f.p.s, actually picked up a meaningless 1 or 2 f.p.s
 

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Discussion Starter #15
All kinds of ways to get where we want to go No1. As long as we get there who's to say we did it wrong.

I am getting to the point my everything is so heavily tuned and modified to my liking. I remember what Dave told me years ago. There stuff is modified to the point they aren't talking about what your going to buy. So you cant go on what they say. Or something along those lines LOL.
 

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i did some extensive f.o.c testing one time only to find after all the work i did....... I was able to achieve the same or even better results just by cutting my arrows down from 22" to 20".

kept all the same components too. Less spine variables as well.

and lost no f.p.s, actually picked up a meaningless 1 or 2 f.p.s
I agree, Rob. With everything else equal, I've always been able to achieve a higher F.O.C. with a shorter arrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I guess a fair question would be. Where do you stop. Is one hole accuracy more important than a few FPS. What if i try 94 gr inserts and my groups shrink counting all my arrows. What if 110 gr i dare not shoot at the same spot at any distance. Or is there a sweet spot we need to find.
 

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I guess a fair question would be. Where do you stop. Is one hole accuracy more important than a few FPS. What if i try 94 gr inserts and my groups shrink counting all my arrows. What if 110 gr i dare not shoot at the same spot at any distance. Or is there a sweet spot we need to find.
i stop when i have real good accuracy with arrow traveling over 430 f.p.s and weighs 420 grains.

From a rest and with the larger Ramcat i can keep them inside of 2 inches at 80 yards. For me there is only one place left to go and that just up another 15 to 20 f.p.s faster withe same arrows.

and the next bow.

I guess it all depends what your chasing, would you agree....?


i guess i am still chasing better optics, this is area i need to loose some weight.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Yes its what each of us wants. Mixed with what the bow/arrows will let us have. And what were willing to pay or do to get it.
 

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I guess a fair question would be. Where do you stop. Is one hole accuracy more important than a few FPS. What if i try 94 gr inserts and my groups shrink counting all my arrows. What if 110 gr i dare not shoot at the same spot at any distance. Or is there a sweet spot we need to find.
Whether it be reloading or arrows, I always stop at what I would call very acceptable accuracy. I like to test things but I'm also a realist and I don't split hairs. Its just too spendy in the terms of wear and tear, as well as time consuming.

Broad head cut dia also plays a role in my decision. I don't see where 1/4" at 30 yards + to either side will make enough difference to be concerned about.
 
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