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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all! I've been shooting fairly well this year ( not yardage judging too well!), but have been experimenting with my form lately. I generaly anchor behind my jaw and shoot a back tension release( Atension) and shoot with what i feel is an exagerated bent bow arm. When I shoot I feel like I am stretching an elastic band, pushing slightly with my arm and pulling by "stretching" my back. I emerse myself in aiming the whole time. My question lies in the fact that I have never seen any pro's or high end archers shooting with their bow arms bent this way. Is there anything inherently inaccurate with this method of shooting? I notice in pictures of Jeff Hopkins, Dave Cousins, Tony Tazza etc. they all have straight arms. I will try it to see, but would like to know if anything on the bow arm being straight or bent has been proven. Last winter I had a coach look at my form and she didn't comment on it, and the level 1 coaching course I took didn't really adress it. Any ideas?
 

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I have to have my bow arm bent or at least rotated out in order to not have the string slap my forearm.:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Opa, thanks for the link! That is about how bent my arm is. I guess it works, but just isn't very common. I was playing with another bow I had that had a longer draw. It didn't feel too bad, but I just have to play around more. I really want to get this figured out because I want a new target bow and want to order it right the first time. Thanks again.
 

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Occam's Razor
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It is "commonly" thought that a bent bow arm is not repeatable for most and can lead to severe tendonitis in many. It sounds to me, without seeing a photo of your form, that if you straignten out your bow arm and moved your anchor up out of your jaw line you might have better form. Try it and see, can't hurt.

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"ARMallardSlayer said.......... I have to have my bow arm bent or at least rotated out in order to not have the string slap my forearm"
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Sounds like the problem associated with a draw length that is too long. Are you leaning back during your shot?. ..................ck
 

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i went through the same thought process. just keep looking. there are many top shooters who have a slight bend in their arms. I think many of the top guys with straight arms were once recurve shooters and developed it at that time.

we are all build different. I spent weeks trying to force a straight arm into my form. just never happened. my site movement was horrible.

just my take on it :cool:
 

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bent elbow

From Bernie Pellerite's Book " Idiot Proof Archery"
This is an excerpt fom "INSIGHTS" by Bernie Pellerite (44 Form Flaws When Things Go Wrong ! in Archery Mag.
Quote: " #23, Bow Arm Elbow Bent, This technique has been mastered by a very few archers, but most shooters will find it almost impossible to duplicate the bent elbow, exactly the same way every shot, especially shooting up and down hills. Sometimes the degree of bend in the elbow causes a slightly different draw length and the archer can't really tell if he is exactly against the wall or slightly into the valley of the bow, from shot to shot (unless you use a clicker or marks on your cables that ensure the same draw length). Now the bow is, once again, being held with muscles, because you must use the deltoid (shoulder muscle) to support this "bent elbow style". This can cause a shaky sight picture. Also, shooting with a bent elbow probably requires two to three times more pratice than shooting with a straight, but relaxed bow arm."
The June / July, August / September and the comming October / November issues of "ARCHERY" published by the "NFAA"

Get a hold of the last issue, this issue and the comming issue and read the articles. Then maybe you will have better understanding of shooting form, both pro and con on form issues and what happens in varius cases.

My ARCHERY web site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~baswb/archery/
 

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clayking said:


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"ARMallardSlayer said.......... I have to have my bow arm bent or at least rotated out in order to not have the string slap my forearm"
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Sounds like the problem associated with a draw length that is too long. Are you leaning back during your shot?. ..................ck
My draw length is right on the money. Every bow I have every owned I have shot this way. As I said, my arm is slighty bent or simply rolled outward to avoid the string hitting my forearm.

I have large forearms.

If I am bending my arm, wouldn't that make the draw even longer if it was already too long?

Maybe it's in my stance....I stand almost 90 degrees from the target.

I can't lean backwards because I shoot with a peep and a kisser button and have to get all that aligned.
 

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cath8r said:
I notice in pictures of Jeff Hopkins, Dave Cousins, Tony Tazza etc. they all have straight arms. I will try it to see, but would like to know if anything on the bow arm being straight or bent has been proven.
As you argue, nearly all pros seem to have a straight arm, and if you turn to Olympic shooting, it's exactly the same... so, it seems evident that you must do so, too, unless there is a medical reason to the contrary.

My current theory on compound bow archery WHICH COULD BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG is that one draws the bow and then puts his thumb to rest on his index finger, and aims while gently squeezing the ring and pinkie fingers to activate the release device (either the rotary ["back tension"] or thumb releases work under this technique), enjoying a surprise break. I reject theories of "pulling hard through the wall," or attempting movement of the scapula (as one must do with a recurve), as such activity is unnecessary with the compound.

If I'm at the next Vegas shoot I will be watching the elbows of the pros just before they break their shot---I'll be looking for any clockwise rotation to suggest true "back tension" (movement of the scapula)---and my guess is that their elbows will be as solid as a rock, with no visible movement.

(Wow, I got off topic, huh?)

kgk
 

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Re: Re: form question re:bow arm...

quote: As you argue, nearly all pros seem to have a straight arm, and if you turn to Olympic shooting, it's exactly the same... so, it seems evident that you must do so, too, unless there is a medical reason to the contrary.

Did a check on the line-up on the website above:

Shooting with a bent arm:

Opa (not on that site, yet :))
Jeff Button
Terry Ragsdale
Morgan Lundin
Peter Penner
Becky Pearson
Georgina Solato (She can even shoot Beiter stabs that way: check it out)
Francesca Peracino
Petra Ericksson
Chong Yu Huang
 

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Re: Re: Re: form question re:bow arm...

opa said:
Shooting with a bent arm....
In some cases I would agree, but in others it is really hard to tell... to quote Rick McKinney from p. 49 of his book,

Some archers believe in the "bent" elbow (bow arm) method. If they leave a little extra room they can "push" off any time if necessary. This is not good for recurve archery. As a matter of fact, I have never met a World or Olympic Champion who does it this way. Some look like they do it, but it is the physical make-up of the archer's body that makes it look as though they have a bent elbow. Darrell Pace and Luann Ryon, both Olympic Gold Medalists, are perfect examples of archers who have locked elbows, but look as though they have room to push!
And didn't Dejan Sitar recently fix his bow arm?

http://www.zone.ee/arturjk/Dejan_Sitar_MM.jpg

kgk
 

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Occam's Razor
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ARMallardSlayer said:
My draw length is right on the money. Every bow I have every owned I have shot this way. As I said, my arm is slighty bent or simply rolled outward to avoid the string hitting my forearm.

If I am bending my arm, wouldn't that make the draw even longer if it was already too long?

Maybe it's in my stance....I stand almost 90 degrees from the target.

I can't lean backwards because I shoot with a peep and a kisser button and have to get all that aligned.
If you straighten your bow arm and move your anchor forward by that amount, the length would stay the same. Take a picture and see if you are in a "T" form or leaning back at the waist.

Why a kisser button? You only need two anchors, the release hand and string on tip, or side, of nose. Peep is supposed to be there when these two are lined up correctly, if not, change peep location. Peep is not an anchor. By the way, Dave Cousin's words, I just agree..................:)

Also Bernie's words also, just don't use the two names n the same paragraph, "a fight might break-out".................:D

Also both say use an open stance.........amazing, how many things they have in common. Big difference, Bernie is "aiming" for the conscious.

Dave is "back" for conscious..................;)........personally I think Dave is sub-conscious for both.........mind is having fun somewhere else.............:D

Take your choice......."only two available, unless you go for unconscious"............:D Dave's quote..........:D .............ck
 

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Just to stick my 0.02 in - I shoot recurve with my arm straight, and it feels great. I can also shoot it with a slight bend, holding most of the weight on my triceps (yes, I've got fair sized arms), but less accurately.

If I shoot compound, it doesn't matter what the ATA or anything else, I can't shoot straight arm like recurve. I have to put that slight bend in in order to hold steady.

This is why if I shoot compound and then in the same session go to recurve, my scores will be sub-par for a few dozen till I remember to straighten my arm...:rolleyes:
 

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I shoot a straight arm for both and 90% of my recurve problems have come from a spongy bow arm. Lets see if Jimmy Despart adds to this thread-I remember his interview in US ARCHER after he won VEGAS in 2000 and as I recall he really strongly advocated the straight and locked bow arm
 

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clayking said:


Why a kisser button? You only need two anchors, the release hand and string on tip, or side, of nose. Peep is supposed to be there when these two are lined up correctly, if not, change peep location. Peep is not an anchor.
Don't know. I have always used a kisser button. The nose on the string, the kisser, the release hand, all work together to ensure evrything is in place.

And I know that the peep isn't an anchor.....you have to touch something before it's an anchor.

When I touch my nose with string and fell the kisser button in the corner of my mouth, and my release hand finds it's spot.....my peep is right where it needs to be.

Like I said, I may be only rotating my arm out, not bending it.....I'll take some pictures this evening.
 

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i tend to look at it a different way. no two people shoot exactly the same way. you could watch people all day long shoot their bows and everyone does things a little different. i dont think its right for one person to say "your doing things all wrong". as long as YOU are comfortable, as long as YOU are shooting accurately and putting that arrow where you want it who is to say you are doing it wrong?:) i shoot compound and shoot a slightly bent bow arm. not because i have to but because it is more comfortable and i'm more accurate that way. if your not comfy then you arent going to shoot very good IMO. accuracy is #1 of importance, so do what you need to do to be accurate.

:cool:
 

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ARMallardSlayer said:
Ok, what exactly constitutes an open stance?
You can be square to the target, as I think you said you now shoot. Open is to simply move so that you are slightly facing the target, maybe by 10-30 degrees. Feet move with the body. Rather than your toes being 90 degrees to the target they are now 60-80 degrees from the target. Hips stay over feet, and shoulders stay over hips. Your bow arm will point toward the target and there will be more space between your arm and the string.

Some will say that as you come to a full draw that you twist at the waist to once again have your upper body square to the target again. That adds torque and brings in additional muscles into play, so many don't do it. However, Simon Needham (Recurve coach in Britain) and Jay Baars both say to twist into the shot..........again, its a matter of what works best for you. I have tried it all and quite frankly, don't notice a serious amount of difference in any of it........except the twisting part, hurts my lower back...

Try it all and see if there is any improvement or whether such changes make it worse. However, you have to do it enough so that it becomes natural...................Ain't this easy......:D .

Re: the peep, figured you knew that, but since I don't know what you know or not know, just threw it in..........:D ........there's plenty that I don't know for sure........:rolleyes: ...............ck
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hey all who replied, Thanks for the posts! I just finished a shooting session with my other bow I have set up for straight(er) arm shooting. It feels a little different and I have also got to get use to this bow again (3 yr. old Martin Phantom) from my Conquest 2. I also noticed there is no fatigue or pain in my bow arm elbow! I think I better give this style a fair shake. Thanks again for all the replies.
 
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