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Discussion Starter #1
My son has the VersaRest and I'm trying to set it up properly for his arrows. He's shooting CarbonOnes for indoor and outdoor JOAD/FITA tourneys. the CarbonOnes are about 230g total w 90gr tip and Spinwings. He's at a low draw weight so his arrow speed is approx 150-160fps. Bow is tuned and he bareshafts to 30M with it. At a recent FITA 1200 Indoor, arrow groups score 8-10s with 10% outside of 8s. No particular pattern, pretty much a circle of shots after 60 arrows. We are trying to tighten it up a few notches since there is a another big competition in March. Also working on stamina, shot cycle, breathing, stabilizer balance, arrow length..

My question is, of the 3 launcher arms included ( lizard, wide target, solid wide blade) which one is best to help with minimizing the group size. Any reason as to why its better would help me understand the physics of it..

How many inches of travel should the arrow move prior to the arm starting to fall down? (right now its about 5", he's at a less than 30# draw so arrow doesn't have much KE )

How spongy or firm should the rest spring be set for (neutral as set from factory or more firm...ours is on the 2nd position so a bit firmer than stock)

Thanks for your suggestions..
 

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I have mine set so it drops away after about 1"
Spring tension set 3 hole from stock setup...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks, do you get enough arrow consistency with only 1" of support before it drops? It seems you have it set fairly hard with the extra tension, are you using the wide target blade or lizard tongue?
 

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My son has the VersaRest and I'm trying to set it up properly for his arrows. He's shooting CarbonOnes for indoor and outdoor JOAD/FITA tourneys. the CarbonOnes are about 230g total w 90gr tip and Spinwings. He's at a low draw weight so his arrow speed is approx 150-160fps. Bow is tuned and he bareshafts to 30M with it. At a recent FITA 1200 Indoor, arrow groups score 8-10s with 10% outside of 8s. No particular pattern, pretty much a circle of shots after 60 arrows. We are trying to tighten it up a few notches since there is a another big competition in March. Also working on stamina, shot cycle, breathing, stabilizer balance, arrow length..

My question is, of the 3 launcher arms included ( lizard, wide target, solid wide blade) which one is best to help with minimizing the group size. Any reason as to why its better would help me understand the physics of it..

How many inches of travel should the arrow move prior to the arm starting to fall down? (right now its about 5", he's at a less than 30# draw so arrow doesn't have much KE )

How spongy or firm should the rest spring be set for (neutral as set from factory or more firm...ours is on the 2nd position so a bit firmer than stock)

Thanks for your suggestions..

Please provide ALL details:

1) what bow (brand and model)?

2) what draw weight?

3) what draw length setting on the bow?

4) Easton Carbon Ones...what spine rating?

5) 90 grain glue in target points and spin wings

6) any arrow wraps? if so, what length?


FITA 1200 indoor...what is the average score per round?

Use the narrow spring steel blade
Set up the arrow rest at a spring steel launcher blade arrow rest (lock out the drop away feature)
Set the blade angle at 30 degrees above horizontal

Use the 0.008 thickness spring steel blade
 

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Discussion Starter #6
N&B Thanks for looking at this,

Bow is Winchester Thunderbolt , 23.5#DW, 22"DL, CarbonOnes 900 spine, cut 22.5" shaft only, 90gr tips, 2 3/16 spin wing elites, pin and g-nock. Bareshaft at 18M shaft is level to ground and in line (no left or right) and grouped with the fletched arrows. Nocks on fletched arrows are 1/4" to 1/2" above level.

At the FITA 1200 his score was 1016, so average of 8.47
 

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N&B Thanks for looking at this,

Bow is Winchester Thunderbolt , 23.5#DW, 22"DL, CarbonOnes 900 spine, cut 22.5" shaft only, 90gr tips, 2 3/16 spin wing elites, pin and g-nock. Bareshaft at 18M shaft is level to ground and in line (no left or right) and grouped with the fletched arrows. Nocks on fletched arrows are 1/4" to 1/2" above level.

At the FITA 1200 his score was 1016, so average of 8.47
Arrows are EXTREMELY over-spined. WAY WAY too stiff.

With Properly Spined arrows, your son would improve his grouping/scores easily.

When the arrows are SOOO STIFF,
and
especially with low poundage bows,
the arrows become EXTREMELY unforgiving.

I see this all the time at the indoor range,
with the younger shooters.

LOW poundage bows, and ridiculously stiff arrows.

The fact that your son can hit bareshafts AND fletched shafts with his compound bow,
is a testament to his skills.
 

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N&B Thanks for looking at this,

Bow is Winchester Thunderbolt , 23.5#DW, 22"DL, CarbonOnes 900 spine, cut 22.5" shaft only, 90gr tips, 2 3/16 spin wing elites, pin and g-nock. Bareshaft at 18M shaft is level to ground and in line (no left or right) and grouped with the fletched arrows. Nocks on fletched arrows are 1/4" to 1/2" above level.

At the FITA 1200 his score was 1016, so average of 8.47
Sooo,
your son is current shooting a 900 spine arrow,
that is only 22.5-inches long (shaft only).

He is only shooting 23.5 lbs of draw weight,
with a 22-inch draw length.


By my calculations,
a 900 spine arrow that is only 22.5-inches long (the shorter the arrow shaft, the more STIFF it behaves)...

would spine CORRECTLY shooting at 37 lbs.

So,
the arrows are more appropriate for someone shooting at a draw weight 157% heavier.


So,
with the properly spined arrows (same exact bow setup)
same draw length,
same draw weight...

just some fine tuning on the arrow rest horizontal position (need to tweak this anytime you switch arrows..cuz the stiffness will be MUCH weaker)
and
just some fine tuning on the arrow rest vertical position (new arrows will be MUCH smaller in diameter).


So,
my recommendation is to go to a 1500 spine arrow (this arrow BENDS 1.5-inches in the stiffness testing machine),
instead of the 900 spine arrow (this arrow only BENDS 0.900 inches in the stiffness testing machine).



Unfortunately,
Easton only makes the super lightweight (very flexible, more appropriate for low draw weight shooters)
in the ACC line.

Easton ACC 2-00
Shoot these at a SHAFT LENGTH = 26.00-inches,
with the 100 grain glue in target point
and the same spin wings you are currently using.

Since I am using a computer program,
I would suggest you cut only 3 TEST shafts
and say 27-inches (raw shaft length)
and fletch with Spin Wings
and the 100 grain glue in target points.

See how the groups improve (they should improve dramatically).

Then,
take another 3 full length shafts,
and cut at a raw shaft length of 26.75-inches.

Fletch and glue in the 100 grain target points.
See if the shorter arrows provide even BETTER arrow groups / scores.

If the GROUP B shafts work better (shorter ones),
then,
take the GROUP A shafts (longer ones)
and cut these down to 26.50-inches
and fletch and glue up the target points (100 grains).

Repeat the experiment
and see if the shorter arrows group better or not.

You may decide that the 26.50-inch shafts work best,
or
you may decide that the 26.25-inch shafts work best.


With the 1500 spine arrows, with 100 grain glue in target points,
and
the Hamskea set as a BLADE LAUNCHER spring steel arrow rest,
with the blade set at 30 degrees (fall away feature locked out)
using the 0.008 narrow tip blade...

your son's scores should shoot right up.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
N&B Thank you for the explanation. I knew that the arrows were stiff so that was the reasoning for the drop-away. I'll see about getting the ACC's and work with the sizes. Will continue working on his shot cycle, form and strength also. Thank you.
 

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N&B Thank you for the explanation. I knew that the arrows were stiff so that was the reasoning for the drop-away. I'll see about getting the ACC's and work with the sizes. Will continue working on his shot cycle, form and strength also. Thank you.
Welcome.

A compound shooter CAN use very stiff arrows,
and get good results,
but the shooter has to work harder on their form,
and the bow DL setting has to be near perfect.

When I switch out arrows to something more appropriate (usually on the weaker side),
when working with kids,
their scores usually go up, sometimes dramatically,
and their motivation goes way up, as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks, I'll work on his form, we have some C1's in 1150 25in, I'll compare the results with those over the next few weeks.
 

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I set my Versa Rest up in limb actuated mode, using the .012 forked drop away blade. I set the spring tensions so that the blade bends about 1/4" before the rod turns.
 

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Thanks, I'll work on his form, we have some C1's in 1150 25in, I'll compare the results with those over the next few weeks.
Ok.
Assuming 90 grain tips,
assuming 2-3/16th Spin Wings....

22-in DL
23.5 lbs of draw weight....

the Carbon One 1150s spine correctly at 33 lbs of draw weight.


Do a search on "draw board".

At the low draw weight,
we need every advantage possible.

So, with the bow at full draw in the draw board....
hold a carbon arrow tight against the side of the top cam...

and rotate the arrow so that the arrow is adjacent to the bowstring.

If the yoke cable legs are the correct individual lengths...
the edge of the arrow and the edge of the bowstring will be parallel......like railroad tracks.

If the yoke cable legs are NOT the correct individual lengths...
then the top axle will dip down on ONE CORNER.

Put the bow in a portable press,
and relax the cables,
and adjust the yoke cable leg lengths.

MOST times on a RH bow,
the LEFT YOKE CABLE leg needs to be untwisted LONGER
and
the RIGHT YOKE CABLE leg neededs to be twisted shorter

in order to get the cam straight up vertical.

When the top cam is straight up vertical,
then you will be able to hold a carbon arrow tight against the side of the TOP CAM
and the edge of the arrow will be DEAD PARALLEL to the edge of the bowstring,
while the bow is held safely at full draw in the draw board.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
SteveID, thanks, do you think that the weight of the arrows would effect the spring tension required? our arrows are 233gr. I'm thinking yours would be in the 350-400gr range..
 

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Discussion Starter #15
N&B,

I probably have 30 pages of your tuning tips printed out that I have been following since last August when we started doing Bare shaft tuning. Over the holidays I built a draw-board and have used that to time the cams, check and remove cam lean, and measure DL, and inches of support before the drop-away started to move. Without your explanations and great process we would not be having as much fun or success as we are. Whenever I make changes in arrows or DW I have been checking for cam lean. We usually include bare-shafts in at least one shooting session every week to check for form or equipment changes. The bare-shaft is usually right there within the group of fletched once adjustments are made. The rest tuning, blade selection, and drop-away travel seemed like one of the last physical adjustments currently needing advise on. We are also working to determine correct scope extension as per one of your articles to help minimize L/R misses due to varying pull (unfortunately no hard stops on the Winchester..unless I can figure out how to add some).
 

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N&B,

I probably have 30 pages of your tuning tips printed out that I have been following since last August when we started doing Bare shaft tuning. Over the holidays I built a draw-board and have used that to time the cams, check and remove cam lean, and measure DL, and inches of support before the drop-away started to move. Without your explanations and great process we would not be having as much fun or success as we are. Whenever I make changes in arrows or DW I have been checking for cam lean. We usually include bare-shafts in at least one shooting session every week to check for form or equipment changes. The bare-shaft is usually right there within the group of fletched once adjustments are made. The rest tuning, blade selection, and drop-away travel seemed like one of the last physical adjustments currently needing advise on. We are also working to determine correct scope extension as per one of your articles to help minimize L/R misses due to varying pull (unfortunately no hard stops on the Winchester..unless I can figure out how to add some).
Hello fotal:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/turbowspeed-turbo-draw-stop-for-genesis-bows.html

Something LIKE this, might work.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Looks Promising, I'll check the bow tonight to see if there is a location that would allow for proper placement on the cam that does not interfere with the cables or end of the limbs. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #18
N&B, unfortunately the TurbowStop won't work on his bow. the Y cable gets in the way. I might be able to machine something if I have the time. would a stop need to contact both of the upper or lower limbs, or just 1 each of the upper or lower limbs. I am thinking if it only contacts one there might be a tendency to torque the cam if only one of the sides of the limb had the stop contact it.
 

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I agree with N&B on the spine issue. I think if you get that worked out, you should see some dramatic improvement.

For the rest, and assuming you are using it in drop away mode, I would suggest a .008 wide best blade for it (wide because it is easier to keep the arrow on it, and in FA mode clearance won't be an issue). Then, follow SteveID's suggestion about the spring tension setting, and a 1/4"ish bend in the blade before the spring kicks in.

I have my 3-D bow set up in similar fashion, but I am using Easton Full Bores with 125 in the tip. Their weight is somewhere in the 380-400 gr. range. The .008 blade worked better than the .010 blade at least for me.
 

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N&B, unfortunately the TurbowStop won't work on his bow. the Y cable gets in the way. I might be able to machine something if I have the time. would a stop need to contact both of the upper or lower limbs, or just 1 each of the upper or lower limbs. I am thinking if it only contacts one there might be a tendency to torque the cam if only one of the sides of the limb had the stop contact it.
One side on the bottom cam is just fine.
Many manufacturers use a hard stop on the edge of the cam, on just one side, on the bottom cam.
 
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