I personally will take broadside or quartering away shots. Usually a relaxed deer will eventually provide a shot like that for you. However, that is not always the case. I personally would not take a shot at the shoulder.

 

I think in this discussion you have to seperate the holier than thou thought process and be completely honest. The angle I would take depends on how close the deer is. I am not worried about penetration rather how confident am I that I can hit the exact spot I am aiming. If you miss 2 inches left or right you might get solid arse, and that is not good. If it was a big buck and it was straight under my stand or facing me I would probably take the shot. Here is why. One you don't get many chances at big bucks, so you have to capitalize when you can. Straight down shot I feel I can for sure get one lung and maybe two. I do know the deer is going to leave little sign but should die rather quickly. I am confident I can find that deer. The straight on shot and shoulder shot I may take if it a last chance shot. I am already assuming I can hit what I am aiming at and knowing where the bones lay in the shoulder and chest make a huge difference. This mysterious shoulder blade that stops all these arrows is actually very small and thin. I shoot a 1 1/8 very sharp fixed blade with KE's in the high 80's unless I hit the actual bone in the leg, I expect a pass though. Now remember I am being honest and not just saying what I think the anti"s want to hear.

 

I have taken almost all of my deer with either a broadside shot or a slightly quartering away shot. After taking near 40 deer with a bow, I have a very good recovery rate. This is due to the fact that I have never taken a shot over 18 yards. This way, I always get a pass thru and dont get gut shots of other poor hits (never had a gut shot) I let a lot of deer walk but thats just me. I hate tracking deer. I wont take a shot at a deer facing straight away from me and I will not take a shot at a deer facing straight at me.

I do a lot of custom butchering for folks and I tend to take a lot of pics along the way.

I post these pictures in an attempt to show what the target opening looks like from both front and rear for a frontal archery shot. This opening on this small deer was 1 3/4 inch across. I am only guessing that it would be about 2 1/2 inches on a large adult deer. As you can see. The sternum at the bottom is a large bony mass that if hit with an arrow will not offer much penetration. On either side of the opening the ribs (viewed from the front) make a solid wall of bones that are curved and are at a glancing angle. If you did go through the ribs on either side of this small opening (more likely, you will glance off and not enter the rib cage), you would hit only one lung. If you miss the opening and shoot high, you do have a chance to hit the spine if you shot does not hit right or left. The spine is a cord that is smaller than an index finger as you can see in the pics. While its possible to make this shot and bring a deer down it does require the highest degree of accuracy to ensure a quick kill. Again. Take from these pics what you will. This is what your target area looks like

From the front. Neck high, sternum low and rib on both sides

From the inside looking out.

The spinal cord in the neck, near the frontal opening. It is very small and well guarded.

A cross section view. The cord is enclosed in solid bone.

I do not mean to tell you how to hunt or tell you which shot angles to take. I post this only to let you know what the frontal archery shot looks like beneath the hair.

 

Thanks for the pics. I completely agree with you 100% Broadside is best and quartering is great. That frontal shot, things would have to be pretty perfect to take that shot. Again not saying I like that shot, but if I am honest, I could see my self taking that shot again and having confidence. I have gut shot my share of deer over the years and only lost one, unfortunately that was last year on the only buck I have gut shot. Really kicks you in the buckys. It has energized my dedication to shooting!

Retch in your broadhead studies or observations have you ever witnessed or tested what a good sharp cut on contact 2 blade head would do out of set-up with high amounts of KE? You see on tv all the time these guys lob these arrows out and hit deer in the spine with only what appears to be 4 inches of Penetration and the deer drops. Would a more traditional orientated 2 blade head have gone through the spine and bone or just bent and deflected with the added KE?

 

Retch in your broadhead studies or observations have you ever witnessed or tested what a good sharp cut on contact 2 blade head would do out of set-up with high amounts of KE? You see on tv all the time these guys lob these arrows out and hit deer in the spine with only what appears to be 4 inches of Penetration and the deer drops. Would a more traditional orientated 2 blade head have gone through the spine and bone or just bent and deflected with the added KE?

Bone is a mighty force to be reckoned with. I have little experience with the new high speed/high K.E. bows in a hunting situation. My fastest bow and the one that develops the most K.E. is a 2006 BowTech Justice that delivers my 363 Gr. arrow a blazing 263 FPS for 56.8 Ft/Lbs. of K.E. I took 4 deer with it in 2006 before I put it away to use a homemade longbow. I haven't looked back since but in all my travels with my chronograph, I can see that today's new bows like the Mathews Reezen, Monster and Z7 as well as the comparable Hoyts and BowTechs and other bows are producing 70 and more Ft/Lbs. of K.E. making those shots that hit bone more likely to result in a harvested and rcovered animal and thats a good thing. Because I process a lot of deer for hunters, I come across a lot of old archery wounds (including shots in the spine, legs bones and even the skull).

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=718489


Because I expect at come point to hit bone, when I started making my own broadheads, I set out to test them on direct bone hits. You can see that at this link.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=717523


I have friends with more money than I do so they make more out of state hunts but because of my life long facination with aroowheads and arrow lethality, they will on occasion, come to me for assistance. This is one such example of a fellow going after 1500 pound American bison with a bow. (this is the same guy with the broadhead in the brain buck posted above) Here is how we tackled his challenge with the proper arrow and broadhead.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=717435

Sorry to ramble but back to your original point. A spine hit with an arrow, almost always results in the arrow failing to pass through. I think that is for a couple of reasons. Most people shoot 3 or 4 bladed heads making it almost impossible for all the blades to pass through the bone and out the other side of the deer. 2nd, the deer moves on impact (actually starts moving in most cases, prior to the arrival of the arrow) this means a great deal of energy is lost in a upwards, downwards, sideways or twisting motion of the deer. That loss of energy prevents a pass through on bone. 3rd, deer are flexible and by that I mean, elastic. When a arrow hits something like the spine, it pushes and bends the spine in the direction of the arrow. Sort of like hanging a bag target and shooting it with an arrow makes the bag swing upon impact. A shot on a deer that misses all bones creates a pass through that takes place so quickly that sometimes even the deer is unaware that it has been hit. Add a bone hit to the equation and you get a less desirable outcome that pushes the bones in the deer sideways. This will sometimes knock the deer off its feet from the impact force.

If today's bowhunters using high speed and high K.E. bows would capitalize on the efficiency of these new bows, they would hedge their bets in regards to a potential bone hit by using a heavier arrow (500 grains or more) and they would use a 2 blade head such as the Magnus line or the Muzzy Phantoms (without the bleeder) or any of the Zwickey or sliver flame heads. These modern bows with a 500 grain arrow and well built 2 blade head could turn that super speed into super K.E. and momentum and penetration and not fear any bone (in the vital chest area) on deer sized game. Sorry to go on so long but this is a subject I have been interested in for decades.

In a little over a week, the WBH will hold its annual broadhead shoot in New Lisbon, We offer attendees the ability to shoot through our speed/K.E./efficiency station. I look forward to the results from this years testing. There will be hundreds of bows sampled and I expect the average efficiency number to go up. For the last few years worth of testing, the average efficiency has been .843. I would expect that to be edging towards .9 or higher. It's interesting to talk to bowhunters and to hear why they choose the broadheads they use. Much of it is market driven rather than based on actual data. We don't allow mech heads to be used on the course or in the Ultimate Broadhead Challenge because of the 7/8 inch min width and 1 1/2 max width rule and the fact that those that use mech heads cant or wont lock their mech heads in the full open position but mech heads and pass throughs and lethality are another topic all together.

 

Quartering away, broadside, slightly quartering to me. I've lost one deer in my life and told myself I'd never lose another. You have to remember that no matter how good your groups are in practice, they will open up in the field IMHO. I'm not saying you're an unethical hunter, I just feel better taking high percentage shots. The deer deserve nothing less. Again folks this is just my opinion.

 

Funny how the right group of people can keep a discussion civilized on a touchy subject. Who'd of thunk?

 

i think we need to post this on l-l! for me every situation is different, but i really feel i can penetrate the chest cavity from any frontal angle. i'm also in that upper 80's range for k/e, so it's not really a concern. i cranked a spiker a few years back that had an arrow sticking out of the hindquarter, he came in straight on and stopped at 20 yards with his head down. i ran that rage right down the side of the neck and buried it up the fletchings. the blood trail was nonexistent but i didn't need it as he fell in 20 yards. what i really like is that hard quartering away shot where i zip them just in front of the rear hip in the 14 ring. it doesn't take long when you take out the femoral and destroy the liver and a lung on the way out.

 

I've taken deer with the strait down shot through the spine and heart. I wouldn't say I would take that shot every time, but if I am confident in making a clean kill, I don't worry about the angle. I practice for severe quartering shots and like to think I am prepared for them. If I have any doubts I just wait to see if a better shot presents itself. If not, I can always let it walk and hope for another chance. It all really comes down to the situation and how confident I am in the shot.

 

Good thread - from my experiance, if I was on the ground I would be more apt to take quartering to shot if that was alll that was offered. One time I shot a buck quartering away at about 15 yards. The arrow followed the rib down and came out between the rib cage and the leg. I did recover the deer but it took a long distance to do so. I guess what I am trying to say is the the perfect shot isn't always that perfect.

I think some times we may pass up killing shots because of uncertanty in our own ability or thinking the angle is too extreme when it was probably ok.

 

I agree with alot said here. I figured we could all get along and discuss this without any negative comments. Over on LL some bonehead would start talkin trash and ruin the whole thing. Donnie, Im not a group shooter at all. I practice in a different way from most people. I only shoot one arrow at a time from any given distance at any given angle. I do this to ensure to myself mostly that my first arrow will hit where im aiming! If you look at alot of my 3d targets they all have holes in the point of the shoulder from repeated shots. I feel as though through the shoulder is an extremely high percentage shot for me and dont hesititate to take it. Like goosie said each situation is different. I dont care for the straight on or straight down shot, but guys who feel comformatable enough to take that shot and recover their deer, great!