I try to say the facts and not confuse them with my preferences. So I call folks out that say they shoot light arrows and get "better" penetration because it's not true. That said you cannot shoot a heavier arrow and get better trajectory either. Not happening. IMHO it starts to hurt your credibly when you let your preferences start to blur reality........

They key is not to try and create your own reality where physics don't exist but to use physics to help groom your setup for the intended use.

 

You watched 'til 7:49?

 

Not sure who that was directed at, but I watched the full video.

 

 

all chaps are assless though?

 

Always check source for accurate information

 

If you are afraid to shoot the shoulder of a whitetail deer with a modern compound bow at normal hunting distances, your setup sucks. You also need an anatomy lesson on a deer's scapular location and function. The heart and most vascular portion of the lungs lie behind it, why wouldn't I want my arrow to penetrate the area? My sons and I shoot the shoulder over and over and over again and the sub 75 yard tracking jobs never get old.

 

I think the question is a little more complicated that presented here, but I do agree your setup sucks if you're scared of it. I'm not at all concerned about shooting the shoulder of a deer or elk with my 440 grain arrow. My concern with this argument is that it's always that it's leaving out the vast, vast middle ground that is the 400-499 grain arrow which nearly everyone is in It presumes a lot of things. That number one - a 440 grain arrow won't go through a deer's or elks shoulder. This has been proven not to be true over, over and over with countless examples of even lighter arrows with mechanicals doing it all the time.

I've passed through a bull on frontal and penetration hasn't been a problem for me. However, it's got a good punch behind it and is topped with a sharp solid fixed blade most of the time.. Moral of the story is that the evidence all suggests that the penetration problem should be tackled with the broadhead. If you're concerned about penetration use an extremely sharp, pointy, durable fixed broadhead. If you're concerned about hitting to far back shoot a mechanical. You just don't need to get down the rabbit hole of heavy arrows, extreme FOC and huge surface area 3:1 broadheads. Those all come with BIG tradeoffs. Sharp durable broadheads don't, there's tons that fly great.

It's also stated more of as a fact vs educated opinion that the best spot to aim is up front behind the shoulder. I don't disagree that it is most vascular and lethal spot to hit. But you've got to hit (accuracy) it and get through. It doesn't leave the most room for error vertically or horizontally. Plus there's still no guarantee that even the heaviest arrow won't stop in the thickest part of the bone. I did a ton of looking around for any vitals photos I could find and all of them show a whole lot more lethal real estate no near bone. This isn't settled to me at all that a mechanical at the blue dot isn't more lethal than a fixed at the red dot. I have heard convincing arguments both ways.

At the end of the day - we're playing a probability game. I'll take the most forgiving setup that handles the widest variety of situations and has eliminated as many variables as possible. For me, that lands at a 440ish grain arrow with titanium components, 100-125 grain solid construction, unvented, 3-4 blade fixed blades with a quiet 3 fletch. Durable, quiet and great penetrating. All while not leaving a little 1" slit and limited damage.

I'll be playing around with mechanicals more in the future. Even despite aiming vital V area - I have a tendency to hit too far back. Due animal movement or I think my pin gravitates towards center of mass often times. I can absolutely see a mechanical helping in those situations.

 

And don't you dare criticize anything he posts or else the fairy cult members dog pile on you with comments about wiffle balls, arrows bouncing off animals, never getting pass-throughs, yardage forgiveness doesn't matter, Troy is the smartest guy in the world and we want to have his babies....

 

Last week's data with respect to velocity loss:

Identical bows: Bowtech Virtue 70#, 28.5"
875 gr: 212/204 fps Launch/50 (Target at 60) 96% retained
455 gr: 282/260 fps Launch/60 (Target at 70) 92%

I twisted up the heavy bow to 73#: now 217/209

=================================================================

Appropriate weight for appropriate game. Are you really that desperate? Small dicked SCI member? Just don't take the shot if it's bad. Same **** for years on rifle forums.....the 3-7-5 H&H is not heavy enough on buff quartering shots.........you need a 4-5-8 Win......BS BS BS. Simple. Know your anatomy. Just don't take the shot.

I appreciate the fact at times we can have a shot get away from us or ducking/etc, but to set up a bow for the 1% just don't make sense to compromise 99% of shots.

The real fun is getting close. I have better stalking stories that I never got a shot off than the ones I did......

 

Last week's data with respect to velocity loss:

Identical bows: Bowtech Virtue 70#, 28.5"
875 gr: 212/204 fps Launch/50 (Target at 60) 96% retained
455 gr: 282/260 fps Launch/60 (Target at 70) 92%

I twisted up the heavy bow to 73#: now 217/209

=================================================================

Appropriate weight for appropriate game. Are you really that desperate? Small dicked SCI member? Just don't take the shot if it's bad. Same **** for years on rifle forums.....the 3-7-5 H&H is not heavy enough on buff quartering shots.........you need a 4-5-8 Win......BS BS BS. Simple. Know your anatomy. Just don't take the shot.

I appreciate the fact at times we can have a shot get away from us or ducking/etc, but to set up a bow for the 1% just don't make sense to compromise 99% of shots.

The real fun is getting close. I have better stalking stories that I never got a shot off than the ones I did......

Let me see if im reading this correctly. The 875gr retained 96% at 60 yards, and the 455gr retains 92% but you wrote 70 yards. Is that a misprint?

 

In the video, he is talking about trajectory and not much of a difference.

here is the 388gr arrow and the 718gr arrow. I calculated the velocity based on the momentum chart he showed. Then i used the program and set the 388gr at 60 yards. In the chart it will show less because this calculator included drag. the degree of angle was 2.05. then I used his 718gr and set it at same degree. it cam out at 2.06

here is what it would look like

next I did that in reverse. I set the 718 gr at 60 yards that degree of angle is 3.65. I set the 388gr at 3.7degree. thsi si what it would now look like

next I set both to 60 yards.

troy skews his comments to fit his agenda. Now is he wrong not always. The heavy arrow will always from the same bow will have a greater potental of penetration. I dont think anyone would disagree. But to say trajectory is not much difference is crasy.

 

Next, I examined the coefficient of drag (Cd) of his two arrows, which he had mentioned: the 388gr and the 718gr.

Odd that his two arrows with that much difference in velocity had basically equal Cd. What I would say is his velocity numbers at distance are incorrect. That is what happens with the labradar. My last test it took 36 shots to get 10 readings at 65 yards. I based that on the signal-to-noise ratio. it needs to be => than 20.

Edit. I did not know the arrow diameter, so I just used the same size for both arrows. If his 718gr was larger than the Cd, it would be less for the 718gr arrow.

 

No. Woosied-----ran out of housing and worried about branches. Just wanted to toss out real numbers.

After all: "it's why we play the game...."

 

sissy, hahahaha

I might have puckered myself

 

Materials and methods.

Why I disregard Ashby. That and excluding giraffe, hide is extremely important. Again, pity.

 

Also this whole idea of a 3:1 broadhead favors mass because it's about impossible to find a true 3:1 broadhead under 300 grains.

 

uglyjoe did a video explaining how the mechanical efficiency is wrong in how they are showing it. It was also discussed by a person years ago in a letter written to a magazine, highlighting the flaw in this. Now, im not saying a long sliver style breadhead is not a great penetration enhancer, it is. But according to uglyjoe, it's just not in how they are describing it.


Physics applications in bowhunting: The myth of mechanical advantage and 3-to-1 ratio broadheads

 

Im from Kauai, Hawaii. Out here all of our game is considered invasive. We dont really have seasons here for game, year around and some units have no limits on game you can take everyday. Iv killed alot of game here from young and seen alot of game taken but you are right! I am new with the bow and arrow. I get what he is saying and i agree with him and for sure it does happen in some instances. Poor blood trails, blocking bleeding from happening but still a animal running with a shaft and razor sharp broad head aint really the same as what he was saying happens with a humans situation. But i agree pass through for sure.

You haven't killed too many game animals have you?

You haven't killed too many game animals have you?

 

I disagree due to momentum gain.

That's assuming that momentum is what causes penetration. @enewman can probably explain it better. Here's one example he used in the past.

It's easy to look at. Take a 650gr at .57momentum being shot from a trad bow. Then a 450gr from a compound bow with the same .57 momentum. Which one will outperform? The compound bow. For the compound bow to outperform a trad bow with two arrows of unequal mass but equal momentum shows that momentum is not the predictor.

 

It's ranch fairy....nuff said....he's a joke at best

 

I ran heavy arrows last year. Absolutely deadly! I am a whitetail hunter only so its not exactly necessary to use heavy arrows. I shot 635grn last year with the single bevel magnus. This year I'm gonna run a happy medium I think. My arrows are right at 500grn. I was givin some sevr 1.5 hybrids to try out, and the single bevel magnus is available in a 125grn this year.

 

Oh boy, this thread has taken off, I must now throw my proverbial overpriced cap into the ring….

This is typical RF… clickbait with presenting only one side of the data that suits his side. He’s been doing some riff of lighter arrows lose more speed at distance than heavier arrows…. and he lists the values which make uneducated people go wow. The problem is he only lists the % speed loss usually and forgets to mention the lighter arrow is faster than the heavier arrow till past 100 yards.

If I make this just about trajectory… its almost a flat earth discussion. If you need range forgiveness at 50+ …. lightest arrow you can get that flies well and won’t explode on impact.

I also occasionally troll RF on IG, but he’ll make some comment about “where’s all the haters with questions”… I’ll ask a pointed question and he’ll never respond. Like his recent post about a 22 short having plenty of KE…. of course trying to bring home a point about momentum vs KE. I simply stated that a Ramset with a 22 short will drive a relatively dull nail 2” into concrete… I never got a reply

I tailor my setup to 3 scenarios: Big pigs at bad angles at night at close range, TAC, and deer season. Each has a different arrow, but all out of a 70# bow.
For the oinkers I go heavy … 520gr of Easton Axis with right at 200gr out front, favoring CoC premium steel heads. This is because angles in the dark are very tough for me to ascertain and the shield on the big guys is no joke.
TAC is all about a non-glass fragile arrow that is light as I can get it, because at my DL (27.25) I need all the help I can get trajectory wise for reaching long targets and the shoot under the overhanging stuff shots. I usually take a couple shots sitting on the ground, where my compatriots with longer DL’s can shoot standing. Usually looking for 390-400gr.
Deer in past its been around 450gr with a variety of heads. This year I’m going the lightest I’ve ever gone at 396, but they fly straight, and at 280fps its a nice… .well he was on this side at 15… now he’s on the other side… probably around 30 type shots. The difference between the two is a few inches at best at my longest range, but if you need 1/2” to get that main artery… you need it.

Everyone looks at this from a physics standpoint in terms of KE/momentum, etc. In those equations when you’re talking about delivery oomph M is either half of it or, a smaller portion with v squared on the energy side. With a bio background, I also look at the terminal side. What’s being impacted…. viscoelasticity. High speed, less target material response time…. lower speed more target material response time. This is really splitting hairs, which is what threads like this are all about But you can make an argument that under certain scenarios (which pretty much what all these arguments have a caveat about) speed can result in a better result than slow.

Common sense goes a lllllooooonnnnngggg way. If you’re a 26” draw going on a moose hunt with a 50# bow… don’t use a 250gr arrow and a mechanical. You also don’t need 80# @ 30” and a 750gr arrow to shoot a 90# whitetail doe.

I’ve sheared the humerus of large pigs with a 450gr arrow. I’ve also had a similar weight arrow go about 2” into a boar’s shield and stop. The difference… a 60# bow and 2” - 3 blade mech, vs a 70# bow and a IW single bevel. Use the right tool for the job.

What I really don’t get about RF… is he’s killed I believe one deer, and no elk…. but man he’s got a lot of info to tell you how to do it

 

Oh boy, this thread has taken off, I must now throw my proverbial overpriced cap into the ring….

This is typical RF… clickbait with presenting only one side of the data that suits his side. He’s been doing some riff of lighter arrows lose more speed at distance than heavier arrows…. and he lists the values which make uneducated people go wow. The problem is he only lists the % speed loss usually and forgets to mention the lighter arrow is faster than the heavier arrow till past 100 yards.

If I make this just about trajectory… its almost a flat earth discussion. If you need range forgiveness at 50+ …. lightest arrow you can get that flies well and won’t explode on impact.

I also occasionally troll RF on IG, but he’ll make some comment about “where’s all the haters with questions”… I’ll ask a pointed question and he’ll never respond. Like his recent post about a 22 short having plenty of KE…. of course trying to bring home a point about momentum vs KE. I simply stated that a Ramset with a 22 short will drive a relatively dull nail 2” into concrete… I never got a reply

I tailor my setup to 3 scenarios: Big pigs at bad angles at night at close range, TAC, and deer season. Each has a different arrow, but all out of a 70# bow.
For the oinkers I go heavy … 520gr of Easton Axis with right at 200gr out front, favoring CoC premium steel heads. This is because angles in the dark are very tough for me to ascertain and the shield on the big guys is no joke.
TAC is all about a non-glass fragile arrow that is light as I can get it, because at my DL (27.25) I need all the help I can get trajectory wise for reaching long targets and the shoot under the overhanging stuff shots. I usually take a couple shots sitting on the ground, where my compatriots with longer DL’s can shoot standing. Usually looking for 390-400gr.
Deer in past its been around 450gr with a variety of heads. This year I’m going the lightest I’ve ever gone at 396, but they fly straight, and at 280fps its a nice… .well he was on this side at 15… now he’s on the other side… probably around 30 type shots. The difference between the two is a few inches at best at my longest range, but if you need 1/2” to get that main artery… you need it.

Everyone looks at this from a physics standpoint in terms of KE/momentum, etc. In those equations when you’re talking about delivery oomph M is either half of it or, a smaller portion with v squared on the energy side. With a bio background, I also look at the terminal side. What’s being impacted…. viscoelasticity. High speed, less target material response time…. lower speed more target material response time. This is really splitting hairs, which is what threads like this are all about But you can make an argument that under certain scenarios (which pretty much what all these arguments have a caveat about) speed can result in a better result than slow.

Common sense goes a lllllooooonnnnngggg way. If you’re a 26” draw going on a moose hunt with a 50# bow… don’t use a 250gr arrow and a mechanical. You also don’t need 80# @ 30” and a 750gr arrow to shoot a 90# whitetail doe.

I’ve sheared the humerus of large pigs with a 450gr arrow. I’ve also had a similar weight arrow go about 2” into a boar’s shield and stop. The difference… a 60# bow and 2” - 3 blade mech, vs a 70# bow and a IW single bevel. Use the right tool for the job.

What I really don’t get about RF… is he’s killed I believe one deer, and no elk…. but man he’s got a lot of info to tell you how to do it

"my DL (27.25)" I dont want to hear this.

I'm 26.5 hahahahaha


That new PSE carbon bow looks promising for short draw. I know my omen with the s2 cam is great for getting the velocity up. its hard on the shoulders, though haha

 

I disagree due to momentum gain.

450gr vs 650gr you loose 60fps and only gain 2.4# of k.e

That is NOT a good trade!

Looking at KE alone misses the whole picture, but it’s also important not to flip the roles. Penetration comes from energy; KE is the amount of work available to cut or crush material. Without sufficient KE, no penetration can occur. No matter how much momentum you have, if there isn’t enough energy, the arrow will not penetrate.


Momentum doesn’t create penetration by itself. Instead, momentum is the arrow’s inertia that helps you use that energy more effectively once you hit resistance. A heavier arrow, even at a lower speed, usually carries more momentum. That higher momentum resists rapid deceleration, so the arrow tends to keep driving forward and apply its KE deeper.


That’s why focusing only on “you only gained 2.4 ft-lbs KE” is misleading. Energy does the work; momentum helps get that work done deeper. In short, KE gives us penetration, and momentum determines how efficiently that penetration happens.


That said, we don’t yet have data showing exactly how much that 2.4 ft-lb KE difference would change penetration. It could be significant if the added momentum improves how the energy is used, or it could not be vital. Ultimately, that tradeoff is up to the shooter to decide.

 

Had great success with VPAs. Easy to tune, accurate- shot a wart hog at 65 through an 8" gap follow up. But loud. Also went down to 454 gr, PH prefers a bevel on the back, better to punch through bone - don't need a big hole, want penetration- that's what trackers are for. Besides I'm in it for the buffalo, plains game are just to kill time......

Bought some Trizots to try out- they have rear bevels. Maybe next year on leopard.

 

I'm still also curious about the crimson talon crocs, i have sets of 125s 150s and 200s, haven't put any of them through animals yet. I know they will pour through deer about like everything else ive tested, dont have any hogs on the books yet though. Thats really what i want to hammer with them.

 

I watched that video a couple of days ago. It’s interesting to me that one set of pins he kept showing was cropped most of the time to hide the fact that the bottom pin was 90 yards. He’s skewing information to support his views and garner support for the Ashby Foundation that he helps run. At best, he’s an imbecile with zero understanding of ballistic principles. (But he’s an expert, just ask him and he’ll tell you so.) At worst he’s a narcissist liar, that skews data, presents straw man arguments and ignores all evidence he doesn’t agree with. All for the sake of YouTube money and selling product.

Ballistics is a well established and understood science at this point. Any person with a basic understanding of long range rifle, can disprove that video and 90% of the BS he spews. Similarly, the Precision Cut app will do the same, with a few weight and downrange velocity numbers.

 

The problem is very few are calling him out on the YouTube channel. I do when I get a chance but very few others. It’s hard to point out issues when only a few of us are on there. One of his last videos was about me. He didn’t say my name but it was obvious for the people know about pnltesters and the papers I write. I called him out that one for sure. Told him when he talks about me just say my name.

 

Amazing how many people get pissy about this guy and this subject on both sides of the fence.

 

Sometimes it feels like a never ending high school physics debate. Native Americans didn’t even know what a grain was and they were probably better hunters than most nowadays. This horse has been beat to death for so long it’s just powdered bone now, let that dog lie and grab any arrow and just go hunting for Pete’s sake.

 

My suggestion is don't watch RF videos, don't post threads about it, just ignore it. It's just click bait stuff to get views and sell products.

 

well that is no fun.

 

here is what troys 388gr arrow looks like from 20 to 60 yards

troys 718gr

both out to 40 yards

 

here is what troys 388gr arrow looks like from 20 to 60 yards

View attachment 8383340

troys 718gr

View attachment 8383348

both out to 40 yards
View attachment 8383357

An extra 15 ft of vertical arc is worth it for arrows that are more lethal. 😉

 

Amazing how many people get pissy about this guy and this subject on both sides of the fence.

The RF causes me to waste a LOT of time. Not because I watch his videos but I have customers that find him AFTER they bought arrows from me. In this example, this customer bought his first set up from me:

Him - I need a complete set up. [someone influential in his life] is taking me on a hunt and I need a bow, arrows, everything to HUNT.

Me - I can help you with that...what is your budget?

Him - I'd like to be under $1000... but I can go above that if absolutely necessary.

Me - Bang for your buck... The Bear Resurgence (RTH version of the Alaskan at the time), a release and a dozen Kill'n Stix Originals = $970ish plus tax. I have a black one here you can shoot. If you want that one, you can leave with it today. If you want one in camo or another solid color, I can order it in... it would be here in a week or so.

He bought the full kit and went home happy. About a month later I get a call:

Him - I'm not happy with you!!!!

Me - What seems to be the problem?

Him - I specifically told you I needed hunting arrows.

Me - That's exactly what I sold you.

Him - You sold me TARGET arrows!!!!

Me - Says who? Your arrows are exact copies of my HUNTING arrows with the exception of the vane color!!!

Him - Then you're an unethical hunter!!!!

Me - *** are you talking about?

Him - I was just watching this guy on YouTube and according to the Ranch Fairy, anything less than 600gr is unethical... so I ordered a grain scale to check my arrows and they are only 455gr!

Me - I don't know Who or What a Ranch Fairy is... but if he is telling you that a 455gr arrow is unethical, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Is it possible you are misunderstanding the point he's trying to make??? Can you send me the video?

Him - I want my money back!!!

Me - That ain't happening.

He sends me the video and sure enough, Troy does in fact state "hunting with anything less than 600gr is unethical." I called the customer back:

Me - That guy is full of [slang word for excrement]... If you want 600gr arrows, I'll happily build you some. I'll even give you a break on the price.... but the arrows you already have are the same arrows I've been killing deer with for years. You are pulling more weight than I am so your arrow is already hitting harder than mine and I've never not had a complete pass through with those arrows.

He ended up hunting with the arrows I sold him and killed a nice deer... He's since purchased 2 more dozen shafts and an AZ EZ Fletch from me.

This story has a happy ending.... but it was really tense for a while. Fun fact, this isn't the only incident where I've had similar conversations.

My suggestion is don't watch RF videos, don't post threads about it, just ignore it. It's just click bait stuff to get views and sell products.

I don't watch RF videos unless someone sends them to me or there is a thread like this.... but, since his name is mentioned frequently in my shop, I need to be prepared to counter his opinions with facts.

 

The RF causes me to waste a LOT of time. Not because I watch his videos but I have customers that find him AFTER they bought arrows from me. In this example, this customer bought his first set up from me:

Him - I need a complete set up. [someone influential in his life] is taking me on a hunt and I need a bow, arrows, everything to HUNT.

Me - I can help you with that...what is your budget?

Him - I'd like to be under $1000... but I can go above that if absolutely necessary.

Me - Bang for your buck... The Bear Resurgence (RTH version of the Alaskan at the time), a release and a dozen Kill'n Stix Originals = $970ish plus tax. I have a black one here you can shoot. If you want that one, you can leave with it today. If you want one in camo or another solid color, I can order it in... it would be here in a week or so.

He bought the full kit and went home happy. About a month later I get a call:

Him - I'm not happy with you!!!!

Me - What seems to be the problem?

Him - I specifically told you I needed hunting arrows.

Me - That's exactly what I sold you.

Him - You sold me TARGET arrows!!!!

Me - Says who? Your arrows are exact copies of my HUNTING arrows with the exception of the vane color!!!

Him - Then you're an unethical hunter!!!!

Me - *** are you talking about?

Him - I was just watching this guy on YouTube and according to the Ranch Fairy, anything less than 600gr is unethical... so I ordered a grain scale to check my arrows and they are only 455gr!

Me - I don't know Who or What a Ranch Fairy is... but if he is telling you that a 455gr arrow is unethical, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Is it possible you are misunderstanding the point he's trying to make??? Can you send me the video?

Him - I want my money back!!!

Me - That ain't happening.

He sends me the video and sure enough, Troy does in fact state "hunting with anything less than 600gr is unethical." I called the customer back:

Me - That guy is full of [slang word for excrement]... If you want 600gr arrows, I'll happily build you some. I'll even give you a break on the price.... but the arrows you already have are the same arrows I've been killing deer with for years. You are pulling more weight than I am so your arrow is already hitting harder than mine and I've never not had a complete pass through with those arrows.

He ended up hunting with the arrows I sold him and killed a nice deer... He's since purchased 2 more dozen shafts and an AZ EZ Fletch from me.

This story has a happy ending.... but it was really tense for a while. Fun fact, this isn't the only incident where I've had similar conversations.



I don't watch RF videos unless someone sends them to me or there is a thread like this.... but, since his name is mentioned frequently in my shop, I need to be prepared to counter his opinions with facts.

I find it amazing that anybody would watch his videos and take what he’s saying as gospel

 

One of the problems is when he is showing that a heavy arrow has more energy at a distance, which is correct. Does the lighter arrow still have enough energy to do the job? If it does, then why does any of this matter?

 

I also acknowledge that a heavy arrow has more energy.... but the question I always ask is, "How deep in the dirt do you need to go???"

At 65# my 450gr arrow goes through the deer and sticks into the ground 3-4"