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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #1
I see a lot of posts on Archerytalk about walk-back tuning presented as follows:

1. Place a bulls-eye near the top of your bale or target.
2. Hang a string from the top of your target which runs through the centerline of the bulls-eye and tie something heavy to the bottom of the string to act as a plumb-bob.
3. Use your shortest range pin and shoot shoot an arrow or two at close range. (say 10 yd)
4. Shoot an arrow or two at mid-range. (say 30 yd)
5. Shoot an arrow or two at long range. (say 60 yd)
6. If your arrows fall in vertical line with each other, and look like this "l", then you are "walk-back tuned"
7. If your arrows get progressively further from the line to one side or the other so that they make the shape like this "/" or this "\", then you move the rest over and re-shoot arrows till they all fall in vertical line like this "l"
8. Once your arrows fall in a straight line at all distances, then your rest is set to perfect "center-shot" and your bow is "walk-back tuned"

This process DOES NOT WORK unless, before you even start the walk-back tuning process above, you have your sight PERFECTLY leveled for 2nd and 3rd axis AND your your sight is already set to shoot dead-center.

Here's what most walk-back tuning threads fail to mention:

1. A bow with a rest that is already set to perfect "center-shot" will shoot patterns that look like this "/" or like this "\" if the sight is not set to perfect dead-center... it's physics...
2. A bow with a rest that is already set to perfect "center-shot" and with a sight that is set to "dead-center" will shoot a patterns that look like this "/" or this "\" if the 2nd and/or 3rd axis is off... it's physics...
3. You DEFINITELY CANNOT simply adjust your rest until all arrows fall vertically next to the string, and then assume that is "center-shot" and then simply move your sight pins over till your arrows hit the string... that doesn't work with physics...

Walk-back tuning can be helpful, although you have to do it in the proper progression as follows:

1. Set 2nd and 3rd axis to perfectly level using a plumb door jamb, a Hamskea tool thingy, or whatever... better yet, use a method to set the levels while at full draw in order to take into account the torque in your riser. (this is usually pretty minimal, but it can be a big deal on some bows).
2. Shoot at a plumb-line string as noted above from 2 yds and adjust your sight windage until you can split the string in half. Take your time on this... one click of the sight adjustment is 2" out at longer distances...
3. Now you're ready to follow the normal walk-back tuning procedure above.

Personally I prefer bare-shaft tuning out to 30 and 40 yds. The bare shaft's flight doesn't rely on the sights being set perfectly in order to tell the truth about cam-sync and center-shot.
 

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I have walk backed tuned before and had good results. yes, my 2nd and 3rd axis were set first, but walk back tuning still worked.

I shoot my 20 yard pin at 20 yards, then I walk back to 30 yards and shoot the same spot on the target with my 20 yard pin. Then go back to 40, still shooting the same spot on the target with my 20 yard pin. If they fall in a vertical line, my centershot is good, even if that vertical line is 2" right of my aim point. Once I get the vertical line, that's when I adjust the windage on my sight to line up.
 

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My Elk Hunting Home
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All I have to say is this.......IF you don't have your sight set up correctly BEFORE tuning your bow, you'll probably figure it out eventually.

And your thread title is incorrect. There's nothing wrong with walk-back tuning. What you've described is a "problem with setting up your sight".
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #4
I have walk backed tuned before and had good results. yes, my 2nd and 3rd axis were set first, but walk back tuning still worked.

I shoot my 20 yard pin at 20 yards, then I walk back to 30 yards and shoot the same spot on the target with my 20 yard pin. Then go back to 40, still shooting the same spot on the target with my 20 yard pin. If they fall in a vertical line, my centershot is good, even if that vertical line is 2" right of my aim point. Once I get the vertical line, that's when I adjust the windage on my sight to line up.
I'm glad that your method of walk-back tuning has yielded good results for you at the ranges you shoot. I'm not here to say your bow's not in tune or something. But here's the problem with the tuning method you described... the laws of projectile physics don't allow both your 20 yd shot and your 40 yd shot to land the same distance from the string if your bow is in tune and your 2nd and 3rd axis are set properly. It cannot happen. If a cleanly fired, properly spined arrow leaves a bow (zero porpoising and zero fishtailing) at a skewed vector and hits the bale 2" to the right of the string at 20 yds, then according to physics, at 40 yds the arrow would HAVE to hit the bale further to the right, if it were to continue along the same vector.

Sight windage, 2nd/3rd axis level and horizontal rest setting all affect flight vectors and where those arrows will hit in relation to the string and sometimes the errors can offset or cancel each other out. The only thing that explains a 20 yd and 40 yd shot hitting the same distance from the plumb line (assuming a perfectly clean shot) is something like a rest that is slightly skewed, combined with a 2nd/3rd axis that is slightly out of level in the opposing direction and it cancels out the rest error.
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #5
All I have to say is this.......IF you don't have your sight set up correctly BEFORE tuning your bow, you'll probably figure it out eventually.

And your thread title is incorrect. There's nothing wrong with walk-back tuning. What you've described is a "problem with setting up your sight".
I will admit... i picked a scandalous thread title...
 

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You should never move your sight during walk back tuning, leave it fixed.
Move rest so all arrows look like "l"
Go back and reset your sights so they are hitting behind the pin.
If 1st axis was set correctly so that you did your walk back tune with a level bubble, then when you set second and third axis you should still get "l" because rest has not moved.
You may have to reset your sights again because pin may have moved during setting of 2nd and 3rd axis but this "l" should not have changed.

I have done it this way, but getting all three axis set before starting will work also.
I could be wrong though, I may have may have my 1st, 2nd and 3rd axis confused.
I always thought 1st axis was the sight block that travels vertically
2nd was the scope housing
3rd was in and out movement of the scope

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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While I do understand your vector argument vs. distance. I fail to see how setting your sight windage at 2 yards is going to help. Since afterall, the second you move your rest to adjust for walk back tuning, the vector the arrow leaves has changed, and you need to reset the windage of your sight.... Therefore whenever I do walkback tuning, I do not touch my sight until after I have gotten my arrows to fall in a vertical line, whether that is directly under my point of aim, or 2" left or right of it. I do set my 2nd and 3rd axis the second I put my sight on my bow though.
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #8
You should never move your sight during walk back tuning, leave it fixed.
Move rest so all arrows look like "l"
Go back and reset your sights so they are hitting behind the pin.
If 1st axis was set correctly so that you did your walk back tune with a level bubble, then when you set second and third axis you should still get "l" because rest has not moved.
You may have to reset your sights again because pin may have moved during setting of 2nd and 3rd axis but this "l" should not have changed.

I have done it this way, but getting all three axis set before starting will work also.
I could be wrong though, I may have may have my 1st, 2nd and 3rd axis confused.
I always thought 1st axis was the sight block that travels vertically
2nd was the scope housing
3rd was in and out movement of the scope

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
1-2-3-Axis.jpg
 

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My Elk Hunting Home
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The only thing that explains a 20 yd and 40 yd shot hitting the same distance from the plumb line (assuming a perfectly clean shot) is something like a rest that is slightly skewed, combined with a 2nd/3rd axis that is slightly out of level in the opposing direction and it cancels out the rest error.
Or........a sight that isn't zeroed on the bullseye yet. If they both hit 2" right of the plumb line that's an easy adjustment with the gang adjustment on the sight.
 

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Bonehunter
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This has been debated 100 times before, it works perfect for me out to 70 yds. It comes down to bow setup & shooter ability...there are also easier ways to achieve the same result.
 

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I'm nicer than I appear
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Well, I believe the title should have "I don't know how to properly walk-back tune." Both Clocked and PWOODNC have pointed out your error, always use the same pin to establish a vertical line pattern and never move your sight during the process.

Then follow Tim Gillingham's steps to set the 2nd and third axis of your sight. Look it up on u-tube if you're not familiar. Good stuff.

Like Bwana, I have used this process with many bows with excellent results, but I always set the sight's axis after I know the bow itself is tuned and the rest is set by paper, then walk-back tune.
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #13
While I do understand your vector argument vs. distance. I fail to see how setting your sight windage at 2 yards is going to help. Since afterall, the second you move your rest to adjust for walk back tuning, the vector the arrow leaves has changed, and you need to reset the windage of your sight.... Therefore whenever I do walkback tuning, I do not touch my sight until after I have gotten my arrows to fall in a vertical line, whether that is directly under my point of aim, or 2" left or right of it. I do set my 2nd and 3rd axis the second I put my sight on my bow though.
Well, think of the extreme condition: lets say your bow is in PERFECT tune and you move your sight so that it was off shooting 1" to the right at 20 yds; that bow would shoot an arrow 10" to the right at 20 yds and 20" to the right at 40 yds. If you move your rest to the left to make it shoot in this pattern "l" then you're bow would no longer be in tune even though it qualifies as "walkback tuned."

Setting the windage at 2 yds takes most all the shot execution factors out of the equation and it minimizes arrow flight (bow tuning) issues; it also ensures that your line of sight is perfectly straight, so that you know any horizontal arrow misses are, in fact, a rest position error and not related to "sight vector" errors. After you've done one iteration with proper walk back tuning starting with setting your sight, and going through the walk-back procedure and adjusting your rest, then you should go back to 2 yds and shoot the string again. You'll likely find that VERY MINOR windage adjustments are needed to split the string in half again. This is because of slight imperfections in arrow flight from your first iteration have now been corrected and it's moved the windage slightly. Then, you need to do the walk-back procedure again and make micro-adjustments to rest position. After your 2nd iteration of walk back tuning, you'll probly be able to split the string again from 2 yds. If not, then do a 3rd iteration.
 

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Un-bannable!
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After reading this and your last post about factory tuned bows and D loops changing your DL I'm beginning to think you got your screen name from taking a Hayhook to the head.

You need to get a better mentor.
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #15
Well, I believe the title should have "I don't know how to properly walk-back tune." Both Clocked and PWOODNC have pointed out your error, always use the same pin to establish a vertical line pattern and never move your sight during the process.

Then follow Tim Gillingham's steps to set the 2nd and third axis of your sight. Look it up on u-tube if you're not familiar. Good stuff.

Like Bwana, I have used this process with many bows with excellent results, but I always set the sight's axis after I know the bow itself is tuned and the rest is set by paper, then walk-back tune.
what error? did i say to use different pins? or to move the sight?
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #16
After reading this and your last post about factory tuned bows and D loops changing your DL I'm beginning to think you got your screen name from taking a Hayhook to the head.

You need to get a better mentor.
Wow, that's even more rude than your comments in the last thread. I'm just trying to help folks out here. What specifically are you saying is incorrect in this thread?
 

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I agree with what hayhook is saying. It's a process that generally requires making repeated read and sight adjustments. Many ways to skin a cat. I personally prefer to paper tune, and then bare shaft tune. I often can't get my bare shaft to impact perfectly with my field points every time. But if I get it close and then my fixed blade broadhead impacts with my field point then I call it done.


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To me the effect of second and third axis during a walk back tune seems minimal if you are using only your 20 yard pin to tune your rest. I agree that they should be adjusted though.
 

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I'm nicer than I appear
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what error? did i say to use different pins? or to move the sight?
Why all the screaming about physics then? A single solitary, stationary aiming point used at multiple distances while aimed at a solitary, stationary target to establish a vertical plane would be a precise assessment to the tune of the rest. The sight would then have no effect on drift of the arrow at multiple distances and therefore could only be effected by the rest.

So, by you establishing that physics had come into play, I assumed that some aspect of the mechanical device (said bow) was being moved to effect the outcome erroneously.

If, in fact, you are not using multiple aiming points or moving the sight...and assuming that you aren't aiming at multiple target points, then explain how "physics" can be applied?
 

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Engineer at Birth
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Discussion Starter #20
Or........a sight that isn't zeroed on the bullseye yet. If they both hit 2" right of the plumb line that's an easy adjustment with the gang adjustment on the sight.
Assuming 2nd and 3rd axis are set level, and if the rest is set to centershot, then how can two arrows fired from the same exact location, shot at the same exact same vector, both hit the SAME horizontal dimension from the plumb-line at two drastically different distances? They can't... and they don't... If the arrows are hitting the same dimension from the plumb line, then either the 2nd or 3rd axis is out of level and/or the rest is not set to centershot and the horizontal sight windage is off, or a combination of the three.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk or a know-it-all here... I've just seen a lot of mis-information about walk-back tuning here on archerytalk, and honestly, i think guys trying to figure this stuff out can get frustrated and settle for "close-enough" because there are too many moving parts and they end up chasing their tails and end up giving up and settling... I used to spend a whole bunch of time chasing my tail walkback tuning and that's why i wanted to post about it.
 
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