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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My son currently is shooting a Misson Rally for indoor competition but would like a Hoyt competition bow. He is currently shooting at 24.5 inch drawlength. I know there is the Ruckus and the Ignite but I am interested in the Pro Comp Elite FX. Does it have a range of 23-30.5 inch drawlength or do you have to pick a specific length ? Can anyone tell me what the retail price of this bow is ? I am sure it is quite expensive. Thx
 

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You can expect to pay at least $1400 for an anodized model, and here's a screen-shot from Hoyt's website...showing the specs of the FX.

fx.jpg
 

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The elite fx would be your best hands down for him. Great to see they made something in a short draw length model specific.
 

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A few thoughts and comments coming from both a Dad perspective and a Coach perspective.

Going from a Mission Rally to a Pro Comp Elite FX is a huge step upwards in quite a few ways.

One - price. You're looking at $1400 for a target color and bare bow.

Two - depending on the size of your shooter, you might be able to find a used Pro Comp Elite with GTX #1 cams instead. This will save you some money.

Three - what draw weight does your child currently shoot?

Four - consider going with a different Hoyt target bow in the used market. I've gotten Hoyt Contender Elites (40-50#, 24-25.5 DL) for $400 recently.

Now, here's things from a coach perspective...

A) if your shooter is shooting 270/300 at 20 yards (on a Vegas 3 spot or a 10 ring 40cm target), it's worth considering upgrading. If not, form is more important and equipment upgrades aren't going to help yet.

B) from past experience, going to a Pro Comp Elite FX isn't going to really buy you anything compared to a Pro Comp Elite, a Contender Elite, or an Ultra Elite. Frankly, an Ultra Elite would actually give you a greater range of arrow choices thanks to its shorter brace height and better speed, helping in outdoor conditions.

C) money is key. Breaking into the higher end target bow realm is painful on the pocketbook. I could equip a student with a used Contender Elite, new SureLoc or Axcel sight, stabilizers, and decent arrows for indoor and outdoor for less than $1400.

So, if I could get a bit more info from you on your kid's specs (draw weight, we already have the draw length, average indoor score for 5 spot or 3 spot at 20 yards/18 meters, or average score outdoor at a certain distance ), a recommendation can be made.

Hope this helps,
-Steve
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you Steve. I appreciate your input. Here are some stats on my 13yr old son:
Drawlength: 24.5 in
Drawweight 35lbs
Sureloc sight with 6x lens
Avg score 280/300 at 20yds on 3 spot, high score 291
Shot at U.S. National Indoor Championship and JOAD National Indoor Championships at Harrisonburg VA last year and will again this year.

Thx again
 

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Thank you Steve. I appreciate your input. Here are some stats on my 13yr old son:
Drawlength: 24.5 in
Drawweight 35lbs
Sureloc sight with 6x lens
Avg score 280/300 at 20yds on 3 spot, high score 291
Shot at U.S. National Indoor Championship and JOAD National Indoor Championships at Harrisonburg VA last year and will again this year.

Thx again
Not a problem. If I understand your username correctly, you have two shooters competing (or have competed) in the same age category/class?

Anyhow, I've only shot (with some level of problem thanks to the draw length) the Pro Comp Elite FX a couple of times, where my son has shot a sample Pro Comp Elite FX for a scoring round (and because it fit his draw length). So, I'm going to use his comparison between the PCEFX and his current indoor target PCE as an example, along with his view and my personal views between the Pro Comp Elite, Contender Elite, and Ultra Elite.

My son's 12 years old, 24.75" DL, 43# DW. Shoots averages of 297-299 Outer 10, 285-290's Inner 10, PB is a 295 25x (inner), 299 18x outer 10. Shoots 330/360 on average at 50m, including his last outdoor pin shoot. (And even though I'm a coach, I don't coach my son out of mental sanity for both of our sakes.)

His view of the PCEFX is that it takes a bit longer to settle in than the PCE. The first time he picked up a PCE (with a basic tune), once sighted in, he shot back to back 294's. He shot a 289 the first time (with sight in) that he picked up a PCEFX. Because the Axle to Axle is shorter than he's used to, the PCEFX required more dynamic stabilization to dial in properly.

In his comparison between the Pro Comp Elite, Contender Elite, and Ultra Elite, the Ultra Elite remains his most favorite outdoor bow (for now), and the Pro Comp Elite is his favorite indoor bow. The Ultra Elite allows him to quickly react to wind changes, where the Pro Comp Elite allows him to stay and hold far better than the Ultra and the Contender Elite. The phrase that the Ultra Elite aims better, the Pro Comp Elite holds better seems to be true for him.

For me (as a shooter), I love the Ultra Elite. It's got the great ability to aim quickly, and the cost of a used Ultra Elite makes it a very cost effective and competitive bow instantly. With the right stabilization, you're able to achieve nearly similar holds to what a Pro Comp Elite would give you.

Now, I'll hit capability next. From the information you've given me, your son is capable of shooting 290 average scores. Once you hit 270 or higher, your doing minor form tweaking, with equipment making up some of the difference too. And, he's used to shooting a bow that's 37" Axle to Axle.

With that being said, I can't necessarily recommend a Pro Comp Elite FX. Here's why.

1) The Pro Comp Elite, Contender Elite, and Ultra Elite are all bows that fit your son currently, and fit him to where he's used to the ATA length. They also fit him in his draw length.

2) As much as the Pro Comp Elite FX is a design that has a lot of target bow benefits, I can see someone transitioning to a PCEFX if they were going from a Razor Edge/Infinite Edge/Ruckus/Chaos/Craze/Menace. Coming from a Mission Rally and averaging 280's? I'd go to a normal sized target bow.

3) Money is an issue. I don't work for a proshop any more, but I still get good deals, and when the decision came up for my son to get a 2014 bow, it came down to another Pro Comp Elite, even though the Pro Comp Elite FX Hoyt's intended market for kids their age.

Sorry, but the Ultra Elite, Contender Elite, and Pro Comp Elite all are tournament proven (even in frankensteined form by custom tuners). In tournaments that both my son and I have shot, all three bows have given nearly identical scores over the years to the two of us.

4) Hitting on the money issue again, I will use some Contenter Elites that I've gotten as spare parts recently. These Contender Elites are 2011 model year, 40-50 pound, 24-25.5" draw, and I picked them up for 400 dollars each. With that level of savings (compared to $1400), you can take the extra 1000 dollars and spend money on upgraded arrows, stabilizers, or for travel money.

5) Don't count out other bows like the PSE Phenom SD and Mathews Conquest C4. Especially the Phenom SD.

Finally - if you have a current archery coach, what do they recommend? What I've written above is what I would recommend if your kids were my students.

Again, hope this helps! Let me know if you'd like more information or guidance...

-Steve
 

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Beastmaster, you made me feel a hole lot better about my decision. I did a Contender Elite frankenbow for my 9 year old (260 inner x shooter with the Ruckus and Ignite) Can't wait to give it to him for x-mas! Just hope it is not to heavy for him.
 

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Beastmaster, you made me feel a hole lot better about my decision. I did a Contender Elite frankenbow for my 9 year old (260 inner x shooter with the Ruckus and Ignite) Can't wait to give it to him for x-mas! Just hope it is not to heavy for him.
There will be an adjustment period with regards to the mass weight.

At 10, my son was shooting a 2006 UltraTec Frankenbow, and loved the weight and the ATA. The longer ATA will help tons with the steadiness.

Don't expect a huge increase in scores straight off. You will likely see him hit identical scores, and then it will take off from there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
First, thank you Steve for taking the time and responding in detail. I am learning alot from your responses. I actually have 13 yr old triplets and an 18 yr old that shoot so that is where my username originated from. Two of my boys shot at Harrisonburg VA last year and my daughter will be joining them this year.

I would like some more information or guidance if you don't mind so I would like to clarify my situation a little better . Believe it or not my son shot in Nationals and the average of 280 and high of 291 was with a Bear Apprentice 2 bow . I recently bought him the Misson Rally and his numbers are considerably down. Avg about 270-275. He doesn't feel as stable or steady with the Rally as he was the Apprentice. He is also dropping when he gets tired and everything seems to go low. We just thought the weight difference(Apprentice 2.9lbs vs Rally 4lbs) was the cause and he would have to get use to it or conditioned. He was been shooting it for a few weeks now and he doesn't seem to be getting any better. Now he is down and doesn't like to bow. This is the reason for this thread . Orginally he wanted a Hoyt Competition bow but I did not want to spend that much money on a bow he will eventually grow out of and have to buy another one . The Rally can be adjusted up to 30 inches so this would be the bow he uses until he stops growing then I would get him the Hoyt he wanted. I recently saw the Pro Comp Elite FX had an adjustable DL of 23-30.5 so that is why I was inquiring about this bow.

So after reading your response I take it that not only the weight of the bow but the Axle to Axle difference (Apprentice 27.6inches vs 37inches)is an adjustment for him also. The pro shop where we shoot was recommending a v-bar for more stablization. He is currently using a 30 inch stablizer. Not sure if more added weight is the answer. What do you think ? Thanks again for your help . Ralph
 

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Ralph,

I'm going to intersperse my responses, headed with a ***. It's going to be a bit long, so sorry for the mini-novel.

-Steve

First, thank you Steve for taking the time and responding in detail. I am learning alot from your responses. I actually have 13 yr old triplets and an 18 yr old that shoot so that is where my username originated from. Two of my boys shot at Harrisonburg VA last year and my daughter will be joining them this year.
*** Cool! I've always said that archery is a family sport.

I would like some more information or guidance if you don't mind so I would like to clarify my situation a little better . Believe it or not my son shot in Nationals and the average of 280 and high of 291 was with a Bear Apprentice 2 bow .
*** This doesn't surprise me one bit. One of my students got his Bronze Olympian at Nationals last year. A lot of kids gain their personal bests at tournaments.

I recently bought him the Misson Rally and his numbers are considerably down. Avg about 270-275. He doesn't feel as stable or steady with the Rally as he was the Apprentice. He is also dropping when he gets tired and everything seems to go low. We just thought the weight difference(Apprentice 2.9lbs vs Rally 4lbs) was the cause and he would have to get use to it or conditioned. He was been shooting it for a few weeks now and he doesn't seem to be getting any better. Now he is down and doesn't like to bow. This is the reason for this thread .
*** That makes a bit more sense. Using the Massachusetts State Champion for Male Compound Bowmen (Seth Trahan) as an example, he transitioned away from a Mission Rally when his parents met up with us at 2012 National Target Championships/JOAD Outdoor Nationals, and they discovered that the Hoyt target bows could be modified to accommodate kids with shorter than 24" draw length.

One of his coaches at the time (5 time Olympian Butch Johnson) did a fascinating trick of rigging D-Loop release rope to the bowstring to give it a harder wall for backtension releases. Seth then converted over to Hoyt UltraTec's and Ultra Elites and is consistently in the top 5 in the country now.

Orginally he wanted a Hoyt Competition bow but I did not want to spend that much money on a bow he will eventually grow out of and have to buy another one . The Rally can be adjusted up to 30 inches so this would be the bow he uses until he stops growing then I would get him the Hoyt he wanted. I recently saw the Pro Comp Elite FX had an adjustable DL of 23-30.5 so that is why I was inquiring about this bow.
***Well, here's a thing that will have you holding your shorts. Truth to tell, Spencer (my son), over a nearly 6 year shooting period, has gone through 15 different bow risers because of growth between himself physically, and shooting ability.

So, truth to tell, you son WILL grow out of a Hoyt Competition bow. Spencer has gone from three different Hoyt UltraTec bows to three different Ultra Elite bows, to his current mix of Hoyt Ultra Elite and Pro Comp Elite bows, all since 2011. Seth Trahan has done it 3 times since 2012. It's the unfortunate nature of the beast - if you're going to be shooting at the top level, keeping up with the growth of your kids is paramount.

And, unfortunately, a "grow as you do" bow generally can't cut it. Statistically over time by tracking what kids shoot and who gets on the podium, I've discovered that those that get on the podium don't get on the podium nationally with a "grow as you do" bow, save for Bowman Female Compound shooters. And I don't count the NFAA Cub distances as a true competition distance, unless they are shooting Vegas. 10 yards (in my view) is setting kids up for failure over time when they transition over to a 20 yard/18m distance.

Here's why someone will grow out of a Hoyt Competition bow eventually.

Hoyt's Target bow cam systems allows for either 1/2" adjustments (Spiral Cams), or 2 inches of adjustment (GTX Cam). Their older cam system (the Cam and a Half and Cam and a Half Plus) offered 2.5 inches of adjustment.

Spiral cams are not practical for growing kids unless you have a coach or parent that is willing to tune and retune a bow over and over every few months to a year.

GTX cams and Cam and a Half cams allow you to grow the bow a bit over time, then you have to replace the cams, strings/cables, and limbs when your shooter grows beyond the 2 to 2.5 inch draw length adjustment. So, using a GTX #1 cam, you get a 24.5 to 26 inch adjustment range on a Pro Comp Elite. When you go from the GTX #1 cam to the GTX #2 cam, you will have to change string/cables and cams, and you may have to change limbs.

The big difference is that the cam system is optimized for that draw length range to where you get the most efficiency out of it. With a grow as you do bow, the cam systems are far more inefficient.

So after reading your response I take it that not only the weight of the bow but the Axle to Axle difference (Apprentice 27.6inches vs 37inches)is an adjustment for him also. The pro shop where we shoot was recommending a v-bar for more stablization. He is currently using a 30 inch stablizer. Not sure if more added weight is the answer. What do you think ? Thanks again for your help . Ralph
*** Weight helps in a wide variety of ways. It helps steady the bow. It helps prevent the bow from being blown around in the wind. The longer Axle to Axle helps prevent "clocking" (where the bow goes from 11/5 o'clock or 1/7 o'clock). A V-Bar will also help prevent that from happening.

Truth to tell, the more advanced bows will weigh more. And it's a adjustment period to get used to the bow's weight. This is where training comes into play - a coach will do drills with the archer so that they ensure that form is set so that good bone to bone alignment occurs.

This is also where a different let-off can help with the Mission Rally. Most hunting bows and grow as you do bows are set to an 80% let off. The Mission Rally can be set to a 75% let off. Most target bows are set to 75 or 65% let off. This affects what we call Holding Weight.

The higher the holding weight, the more steady the bow becomes. It also means you're holding more weight back, but the greater "push-pull" resistance you create, the less wobble the bow creates - providing your form is fine. Again, getting a good coach is key to helping out in the form regard.

I am going to hit on the coaching aspect. At this stage of the game, getting a coach is key, regardless of the equipment. I can't say that you can't progress well without a coach, but life is far harder. A good coach will sit down with you and discuss pros and cons of equipment, training aspects and goals, and tweak form and equipment both to optimize the shooter.

I don't know who's your son's current coach is, or if your JOAD program has any Level 3 or higher coaches. But, there are three coaches that I do know of (two personally) that I would recommend if your son is currently coachless. Unfortunately, they all are about 2 hours drive away from Scranton.

Larry Wise (who I know by reputation) is a really good coach. Dave Strychalski (who has a son that shoots as a peer - TJ), and USAT Shooter Carli Cochran are two other coaches that I can recommend and that knows equipment and know shooting at a higher level - TJ is always on the podium nationally, and Carli competes on an international level and can transfer her experience over to young shooters working their way up. Dave tweaks and understands Hoyts, and Carli shoots Mathews (who owns Mission bows), and Carli used to be a Hoyt Pro Staff shooter.

Anyhow, sorry for the mini novel. Let me know if you need more information!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Steve, once again, thank you for taking the time and giving such great information. It is very much appreciated. Interesting enough my son Anthony was paired up with Ted at Nationals and had to go against Ted in a shoot off in the JOAD Pa States. Ted ended up beating my son in the shoot off but he lost in the finals. I feel my son became a better shooter just by standing next to him and competing against him. Great experience !

Having 4 kids shooting with 3 shooting competitively, there is only so much I can do financially . With that said I think the Misson Rally might be the best fit for him right now and just have him work through this adjustment period .

In your experience, how long do you think this adjustment period should take ? I understand everyone is different but I just looking for a estimate ?

What exercises would you recommend him doing to increase his strength shooting ?

Would you recommend the v-bar in his situation ?

Once again, Thank you for your time and experience.. Ralph
 

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Steve, once again, thank you for taking the time and giving such great information. It is very much appreciated. Interesting enough my son Anthony was paired up with Ted at Nationals and had to go against Ted in a shoot off in the JOAD Pa States. Ted ended up beating my son in the shoot off but he lost in the finals. I feel my son became a better shooter just by standing next to him and competing against him. Great experience !

Having 4 kids shooting with 3 shooting competitively, there is only so much I can do financially . With that said I think the Misson Rally might be the best fit for him right now and just have him work through this adjustment period .

In your experience, how long do you think this adjustment period should take ? I understand everyone is different but I just looking for a estimate ?

What exercises would you recommend him doing to increase his strength shooting ?

Would you recommend the v-bar in his situation ?

Once again, Thank you for your time and experience.. Ralph
The biggest issue is getting and finding out form. I'm going to stress this, if your club has a coach (not necessarily a Level 2 Instructor, but an experienced coach), have the coach set up a shot routine, and have you observe it so that you can work on the shot process without the coach being there. I find that parental support is key for kids and their shot cycle

If not, I can try and get you some online resources to draw upon to refine the shot process. Also, I highly recommend doing SPT's. SPT's are specific training exercises that will help the archer in strengthening the core muscles used in archery.

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Training/SPTs/SPTtrainingHandbook.pdf

If you don't have access to a coach, some of us can try to do remote analysis. Kick me an email at syarchery (at) gmail and send me a video.

Hope this helps,
Steve
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Steve,

My son and I shot last night. He mentioned to me that his release was not working properly. He has a Tru Ball Sweet Spot Ultra 4. Then I thought about your response about let-off and the more weight and push-pull resistance , so I increased his draw weight by 1 full turn. That solved his release issue and he said he felt more steady . He ended up with a 280 in the 1st half and a 278 in the 2nd so he is back to where he was with his old bow. Thanks for the great advice.

Don't think we have a coach that does what you are saying so I will video him and send it to you. Thanks again. You have been a great help. I appreciate the time you have taken with me. This is why archery is such a great sport. Everyone is so willing to help each other..

Ralph
 

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No prob! Look forward to seeing the video!

-Steve
 
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