[zach_454]

Ok, so I am just getting into the traditional shooting a recurve. I have been asking questions and you guys have been awesome with helping me learn, so what better place but to ask another question! I'm shooting a 60" Samick Red Stag 45# 28" draw with 29" long Gold Tip Traditional 3555 with 4inch Right winged feathers and 100gr tips. I'm trying to get the darn thing tuned and I don't know if its right. I tried bar shaft tuning and @ 10yards and my bareshafts we about 7inchs lower, so I moved my nocking point down and here is what I got:

Then this is what I get @ 20yards...

That can't be right can it? When I shoot the bareshafts I can see the arrow kinda go left and then down and start coming back and hit the target, at least that is what it looks like, but the bareshafts aren't even close to the fletched arrows, and I have done it a few different times and its basically the same thing. The fletched arows look like they fly pretty strait, maybe just a little fishtailing or back and forth, but it doesn't always happen, so thats probably just me.

Here is what my rest looks like and how I have the arrow nocked. Its hard to tell but in the picture thats shows the the shelf, the left is wearing down and it is red, so it must be the bottom feather hitting there, is that normal?

I would greatly appreciate any help.
Thanks!

-Zach

 

[Viper1]

zach -

Let's go with the understanding that helping with tuning over the net is next to impossible ... OK.

From the first picture, unless you are shooting from the prone position, it seem like the bare shafts are entering correctly and the fletched ones are lying to you. That's based on the angles on impact and the shelf wear. Looks like the feathers are hoping off the rig and flirting. That might suggest a stiff acting arrow. The picture of the string, if extrapolated might suggest that the arrow is too far off center, and a softer arrow might be required.

The second picture indicates inconsistent form, since the bare shafts are doing two opposite things.

Again, this is tricky without seeing you, but I would hold off on tuning until you were getting recognizable with both fletched arrows and bare shafts at 20 yards, then revisit the bare shafting.


Also while not technically necessary, people tend to get better results when bare shafting at shoulder level.

Viper1 out.

 

[martha j]

arrows are way to stiff.

 

[zach_454]

so a stiff arrow would also make the bare shafts have that up and down angle? I have tried using 125gr tips and I couldn't tell a difference, but I also am new at this. Should I try 190gr or is a tip weight not even gunna come close?

 

[trapperDave]

175-250 up front will get you in the ballpark. at 45 you should try a 15-35 carbon to use lighter tips

 

[Viper1]

zack -

No a stiff arrow will make an arrow impact to the left of the fletched ones with a tail right kickout, UNLESS the feathers aren't clearing the shelf (because they are too stiff) and making the results useless. That's my guess.

Viper1 out.

 

[zach_454]

ok so this is starting to make sense. I'm going to get a Field Point test kit including 175g-250gr and try to "unstiffen" these arrows I have and see what happens. Is the arrow suppose to clear the shelf completely? or just a lot more than what it actually is?

Thanks guys for the advice!

 

[Big Country]

I think you are already on the right path with much heavier tips to weaken the dynamic spine of your arrows.

Unless it is just an optical illusion, it also looks like you could turn your nock to get that cock feather pointing straight out to the side. Feathers pretty much lay down flat on launch anyhow, but you should get less contact with that bottom red feather if you twist that knock. :smile:

 

[Viper1]

zach -

Is the arrow suppose to clear the shelf completely?

Pretty much, but there is a little wiggle room.

Viper1 out.

 

[zach_454]

ok last question!.......if my arrows would happen to need a 250gr point to give the correct spine, won't that affect my FOC, basically making it a dart?

 

[Viper1]

zach -

Some people are in love the the EFOC thing this week, so it can be a plus or a minus depending on which camp you're in. If I ever needed 250 gr in front on an arrow, I'd just get the right spined arrows in the first place, the heaviest broad head I ever used was about 145 gr.

Regarding the (lawn)dart thing, yes it would, but generally not at typical bowhunting distances.

Viper1 out.

 

[shoothathang]

I agree with Big Country-turn your cock feather 90 degrees from your string and try it again.

 

[WindWalker]

First things first; you have the tail waggin' the dog.

Get the target up off the floor and set it at a height that allows the target center to be at the same level and in line with your arrow. At the present time you are attempting to establish "form," correct form, which includes your anchor and your release. Shooting at a target at ground level will be counterproductive for you at this time.

Properly index your fletch. In the pics it appears that the cock feather is not perpendicular to the riser and the bottom hen feather is cocked inboard to the riser. Both will cause serious fletch to shelf/riser contact.

Set your string nock(s) starting at 1/8" to 3/8" above 90 degrees to start with...some start with a higher nock point, and then adjust the nock height in small increments until you find the sweet spot.

Installing bowstring nock

Determine if your bow is cut-to-center or cut-past-center. A cut-to-center is not a true center-shot and regardless of what the spine charts indicate your arrows may be too stiff for your bow.

Make sure the tip of your shaft is just outboard of your string for proper alignment. Can't really tell for sure by just your pic, but it appears that if you align the string center in the limbs, your shaft might be too center or inboard a bit. Quite often the center alignment may perform best at just 1/2 the diameter of the shaft. You have to tweak and find.

Install a rest on the shelf and get your arrow up off the shelf, at least until you establish good form and become better acquainted and more skilled with shooting the bow. Until then, clearance and contact issues will be your nemesis shooting off the shelf.

Last, but most important; until you learn more and become more proficient in tuning, %#$!-can the bareshaft tuning. The primary purposes of bareshaft tuning are to establish the proper static and dynamic spine for your bow, and to properly tune your arrows and your bow. Bareshaft tuning can easily give false positives/negatives.

Until you establish good form, though you might believe that the bareshaft is indicating that something is amiss regarding the static/dynamic spine of the arrow, nock height, center alignment, head weight, etc, etc, the cause could easily be, in part or in whole, your form.

 

[WindWalker]

zach_454:

Regarding whether your bow is cut-to-center, just past center, or a full center-shot riser, I found that it depends on who has answered the question. However, most say your riser is "cut-to-center," and "cut-just-past center" coming in a close 2nd.

Regardless whether your bow riser is cut to or just past center, it is likely that you may require a weaker spine shaft than what you are presently shooting, which, if close enough to being the correct spine, you might be able to accomplish by using a heavier front load to weaken the shaft (dynamic spine).

If your bow is not center-shot, it is likely that the only methods available to align the shaft just outboard of the string are the thickness of the strike-plate and the diameter of the shaft.

 

[Sanford]

I guess I had never seen an upclose of the Red Stag. That looks like a heck of a nice bow, detail and material wise, for the price. I would suspect you are overspined, but agree, tuning off the ground is not optimal.

 

[zach_454]

Ok I turned my cock feather extactly perpendicular to my string, strait out. Still does the same thing. With the center shot, I put tape on my limbs and marked the center and then held it out in front of me with a arrow loaded and balanced the bottom limb on my knee so I could just see right above the arrow. I centered the string with my marks and looked at the arrow closing my left eye. the arrow is just a little on the left side of the string. If I remove the strike plate its a little closer to the string, not much. Did I do this correctly?

 

[Sanford]

You should probably shoot the fletched shafts until you are grouping consistently at 20-yards. At that point, you will have developed a benchmark from which to "gauge" a bareshafted arrow. You might try upping the front weight a good bit for starters, but your final tune could involve another shaft spine.

 

[shoothathang]

ttt

 

[MI_Darton]

Sanford, WindW, Viper....you guys are great. IMO, you consistantly offer helpful and accurate advise to the newb's on this forum. There are a few more of you too, so I just wanted to say thanks.
FYI, I am having similar issues that Zach is experiencing.

 

[zach_454]

Ok so I just got my tuning tips (100gr-250gr) and according to all the advice on here saying my arrows were too stiff and applied that to the Stu Miller chart, I put on a 200gr tip and from 20yards my bareshaft and fletched arrows hit a lot closer to each other and the bareshafts were more predictable and also quieted my bow down a little. From what I can til at 20yards my fletched arrows look like they are flying pretty straight, no up or down or fishtailing that I can see. On occasion it might fishtail, but I assume thats from inexperience. (I shoot 3 fingers under)
When I shoot my bareshafts from 20yards, it flys straighter but looks like it dips down half way, is that to be expected? And at 10yards the bareshafts have a upward angle, not as bad as my pictures but they don't stick straight out, is that normal?

Thanks again, you guys are life savers!
-Zach