Most of the time when an archer makes a significant change, there are mixed results, and frequently performance gets worse before it gets better. Two good examples are a change in mechanical release style and transitioning to back tension to trigger the shot. Especially back tension. I have it heard it accurately described as a "work in process" that some archers never perfect. I for one am not critical of the aiming style you were previously using, so don't be too concerned with what other people think. All of this means that you should not try to make an attempt at a significant change close to hunting season, since it can take a significant length of time to settle into a new technique. Good luck and don't get too frustrated with the rate of progress.
I'm Getting Mixed Results Letting the Pin Float Versus Aiming and Shooting!
Ok, so I have been shooting for a few years now, and I have mostly been more of a shooter who likes to release the arrow when the pin is on the spot that I want it, with pretty good results. However, the past few months I have been trying to focus more on just letting the pin float (basically ignoring it) and staring at/through my target instead. The problem that I'm having is that now my accuracy is DECREASING. My arrow is most definitely hitting where the pin is, which is actually the big problem. If my pin is "high" while I'm letting it float and I fire while still staring at the target, then my arrow ends up high. This is happening consistently, and now I'm wondering if I should go back to my old way of shooting.
I do recall rcrchery (on Youtube) stating that there are two types of shooters, those who focus on the pin, and those who focus on the target, and that he was more of a "pin shooter." With that being said, it seems that in the archery community "pin shooting" is looked down upon and considered the wrong way to shoot. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Is there something that I may be missing or doing wrong here with the new method that I'm trying?
Thanks in advance for any help given!
I do recall rcrchery (on Youtube) stating that there are two types of shooters, those who focus on the pin, and those who focus on the target, and that he was more of a "pin shooter." With that being said, it seems that in the archery community "pin shooting" is looked down upon and considered the wrong way to shoot. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Is there something that I may be missing or doing wrong here with the new method that I'm trying?
Thanks in advance for any help given!
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Thanks man, I really appreciate it. I'm someone who is BIG on "Doing things correctly" because that's just how I am. Part of the reason why I made the switch is because my former style is often looked on as "wrong" or incorrect, but now I'm thinking that I was wrong/incorrect for changing in the first place. I'm a dog chasing his tail, lol!Most of the time when an archer makes a significant change, there are mixed results, and frequently performance gets worse before it gets better. Two good examples are a change in mechanical release style and transitioning to back tension to trigger the shot. Especially back tension. I have it heard it accurately described as a "work in process" that some archers never perfect. I for one am not critical of the aiming style you were previously using, so don't be too concerned with what other people think. All of this means that you should not try to make an attempt at a significant change close to hunting season, since it can take a significant length of time to settle into a new technique. Good luck and don't get too frustrated with the rate of progress.
Thanks again for the advice!
I think you missed a key step. You're always shooting when the pin is where you want to hit. It's how you get there that is different. A pure target focus person ignores the pin, lets the float settle while maintaining form and being relaxed and knows the fuzzy pin will settle on what they are looking at. When it does they initiate the release (i.e. via back tension and pulling through). A pure pin focused person is focused on the pin, the target may be fuzzy, and they let the float settle down and hold it on the target as they initiate the release.
It's like if you're shooting a pistol. You stare at the front post. The rear notch is fuzzy, the target is fuzzy. You place the front post in the proper position and shoot. (That would be analogous to shooting pin focused).
It's like if you're shooting a pistol. You stare at the front post. The rear notch is fuzzy, the target is fuzzy. You place the front post in the proper position and shoot. (That would be analogous to shooting pin focused).
Generally speaking, once you get the surprise release down, you will shoot more consistently and more accurately and most importantly, you will do so especially when there is added pressure. This is why most successful target archers shoot with a surprise release as they can shoot more consistently while under extreme pressure. As with everything, not one method will work best for all archers. But when you punch or command shoot, everything will tend to be better most of the time, but you will typically miss by a larger amount when it goes wrong. Then when you add pressure, things tend to go worse when command shooting as muscles will tend to be more tense, your adrenaline is higher, the float is typically faster, and nothing feels like it does during practice when you are relaxed and calm. I have found I shoot my best when I have a very slow and controlled squeeze to my shot while focusing on the target. It is kind of a mixed shot process from both styles and I focus more on being patient and letting the shot happen while consciously focusing on squeezing the release while letting the pin float around the desired impact point. My biggest problem is I really struggle on the focusing part...
Ok, so it sounds like what you are saying is that I may not be letting my float settle down long enough when I'm using the "stare at the target" technique? That would make sense, and could be something that I focus on more.I think you missed a key step. You're always shooting when the pin is where you want to hit. It's how you get there that is different. A pure target focus person ignores the pin, lets the float settle while maintaining form and being relaxed and knows the fuzzy pin will settle on what they are looking at. When it does they initiate the release (i.e. via back tension and pulling through). A pure pin focused person is focused on the pin, the target may be fuzzy, and they let the float settle down and hold it on the target as they initiate the release.
It's like if you're shooting a pistol. You stare at the front post. The rear notch is fuzzy, the target is fuzzy. You place the front post in the proper position and shoot. (That would be analogous to shooting pin focused).
My focus comes and goes, lol. I find that I'm focusing on so many things INCLUDING the target that I have lapses as well Who knew that shooting a bow would be so damn complicated, lol? Thanks for the info. I'm going to work more on the things that you suggested.Generally speaking, once you get the surprise release down, you will shoot more consistently and more accurately and most importantly, you will do so especially when there is added pressure. This is why most successful target archers shoot with a surprise release as they can shoot more consistently while under extreme pressure. As with everything, not one method will work best for all archers. But when you punch or command shoot, everything will tend to be better most of the time, but you will typically miss by a larger amount when it goes wrong. Then when you add pressure, things tend to go worse when command shooting as muscles will tend to be more tense, your adrenaline is higher, the float is typically faster, and nothing feels like it does during practice when you are relaxed and calm. I have found I shoot my best when I have a very slow and controlled squeeze to my shot while focusing on the target. It is kind of a mixed shot process from both styles and I focus more on being patient and letting the shot happen while consciously focusing on squeezing the release while letting the pin float around the desired impact point. My biggest problem is I really struggle on the focusing part...
That's what it seems like to meOk, so it sounds like what you are saying is that I may not be letting my float settle down long enough when I'm using the "stare at the target" technique? That would make sense, and could be something that I focus on more.
Write down a full shot sequence. Actually type it out in the notes on your phone or write it on a piece of paper. Repeat it every time, don't skip a step. For example, my current shot sequence goes like this.My focus comes and goes, lol. I find that I'm focusing on so many things INCLUDING the target that I have lapses as well Who knew that shooting a bow would be so damn complicated, lol? Thanks for the info. I'm going to work more on the things that you suggested.
These first steps are all done in this order, but not necessarily spoken in my head.
Nock the arrow
Make sure arrow is on rest
Set my grip
Hook up my release
Double check grip
Draw bow
Set my bow shoulder
Anchor
Acquire target
Feel trigger
At this point I start saying these things out loud in my head
Level is centered
Peep is centered
Let the pin float
Preload Trigger
Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience until the shot fires or I need to let down.
As I am saying Patience in my head that is the only thing I am thinking about. But while I am doing that, I want my subconscious to be aiming and squeezing the trigger at the same time. If my mind starts focusing on something that is outside of patience, aiming, or squeezing the release, then I let down. I will change my focus between those 3 things from time to time to try and keep my mind fresh. When I do that, I change my word to aim, aim, aim or squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. But I have to try and stay focused on one thing. When I am shooting my best, these are the things that work for me. Unfortunately, too often I end up just flinging arrows rather than seriously going through my shot routine. But when I do get into this mental zone of executing this plan and routine, my shooting is extremely good and very consistent. Staying in that is one of the hardest things for me.
I definitely have that sequence in my head, but my biggest issue is that during the "Patience" stage I start thinking about/reminding myself if all of my other steps are still in place (such as bow shoulder or pulling through the shot at the end). I just have to keep working at it and keep focusing on my "focus", lol. Thanks again for the tips. I'm going to double-back and make sure that I'm doing everything that you said!Write down a full shot sequence. Actually type it out in the notes on your phone or write it on a piece of paper. Repeat it every time, don't skip a step. For example, my current shot sequence goes like this.
These first steps are all done in this order, but not necessarily spoken in my head.
Nock the arrow
Make sure arrow is on rest
Set my grip
Hook up my release
Double check grip
Draw bow
Set my bow shoulder
Anchor
Acquire target
Feel trigger
At this point I start saying these things out loud in my head
Level is centered
Peep is centered
Let the pin float
Preload Trigger
Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience, Patience until the shot fires or I need to let down.
As I am saying Patience in my head that is the only thing I am thinking about. But while I am doing that, I want my subconscious to be aiming and squeezing the trigger at the same time. If my mind starts focusing on something that is outside of patience, aiming, or squeezing the release, then I let down. I will change my focus between those 3 things from time to time to try and keep my mind fresh. When I do that, I change my word to aim, aim, aim or squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. But I have to try and stay focused on one thing. When I am shooting my best, these are the things that work for me. Unfortunately, too often I end up just flinging arrows rather than seriously going through my shot routine. But when I do get into this mental zone of executing this plan and routine, my shooting is extremely good and very consistent. Staying in that is one of the hardest things for me.
Do you shoot with both eyes open or one eye open? I find it easier to target focus with both eyes open and pin focus with only one eye open. I do both from time to time just to practice but i mostly pin focus.
Another thing to consider is pin float itself.
Surprise shooters, especially Pro's, spend a lot of time fine tuning both their form and adjustments to the bow to get it to "aim better".
Paige Pearce has a pretty good video on FB and Youtube that talks about everything she does to setup a bow so it aims better for her. Everything from arrow height in relation to the Berger, nock point, peep height, tiller, timing, cable tensioner setting, subtle draw length adjustments, d-loop length adjustments, holding weight...all can help with pin movement. This is all done before stabilizers are ever added to the bow, or the peep is tied in, or the bow is even shot. Just make an adjustment, draw and view what float is doing, and then let down and make another adjustment, etc. etc.
I command shot for years and years. I still will shoot a better score on a 3 spot Vegas face commanding the shot than I do when using a back tension surprise release. I can keep arrows in the yellow mostly, but just not quite as many land in the 10 ring as when I command the shot. I will have a couple fliers into the 8 ring when I mess up a command shot, but still always have a higher score at the end as when I surprise shoot, and definitely more X's. Surprise release simply gets me a lot of 9's rather than 10's.
Certainly some if this is my own form, but I'm also working on a spare bow right now trying a lot of the things that Paige had in her video to get it to hold better for me. It is just something I've never tried to do, I've always just set a bow at my draw length...or at the closest to my draw length that the bow's mods will offer in their 1/2" increments anyway...had a shop set the bow to spec and time it, set nock and rest height around halfway up in the Berger, tuned, and what I got was what I got. I'm doing it on a bow that actually is one of the worst holding bow's I've ever had, just to see how much better I can make it. I'm not very far along right now so can't really say as of yet.
Surprise shooters, especially Pro's, spend a lot of time fine tuning both their form and adjustments to the bow to get it to "aim better".
Paige Pearce has a pretty good video on FB and Youtube that talks about everything she does to setup a bow so it aims better for her. Everything from arrow height in relation to the Berger, nock point, peep height, tiller, timing, cable tensioner setting, subtle draw length adjustments, d-loop length adjustments, holding weight...all can help with pin movement. This is all done before stabilizers are ever added to the bow, or the peep is tied in, or the bow is even shot. Just make an adjustment, draw and view what float is doing, and then let down and make another adjustment, etc. etc.
I command shot for years and years. I still will shoot a better score on a 3 spot Vegas face commanding the shot than I do when using a back tension surprise release. I can keep arrows in the yellow mostly, but just not quite as many land in the 10 ring as when I command the shot. I will have a couple fliers into the 8 ring when I mess up a command shot, but still always have a higher score at the end as when I surprise shoot, and definitely more X's. Surprise release simply gets me a lot of 9's rather than 10's.
Certainly some if this is my own form, but I'm also working on a spare bow right now trying a lot of the things that Paige had in her video to get it to hold better for me. It is just something I've never tried to do, I've always just set a bow at my draw length...or at the closest to my draw length that the bow's mods will offer in their 1/2" increments anyway...had a shop set the bow to spec and time it, set nock and rest height around halfway up in the Berger, tuned, and what I got was what I got. I'm doing it on a bow that actually is one of the worst holding bow's I've ever had, just to see how much better I can make it. I'm not very far along right now so can't really say as of yet.
Very good point, it's amazing how big a difference a few twists up or down the serving the d-loop/nock point will change how a bow holds. Tiller tuning and cam timing also add a huge amount of nuance to how a bow can hold and feel at full drawAnother thing to consider is pin float itself.
Surprise shooters, especially Pro's, spend a lot of time fine tuning both their form and adjustments to the bow to get it to "aim better".
Paige Pearce has a pretty good video on FB and Youtube that talks about everything she does to setup a bow so it aims better for her. Everything from arrow height in relation to the Berger, nock point, peep height, tiller, timing, cable tensioner setting, subtle draw length adjustments, d-loop length adjustments, holding weight...all can help with pin movement. This is all done before stabilizers are ever added to the bow, or the peep is tied in, or the bow is even shot. Just make an adjustment, draw and view what float is doing, and then let down and make another adjustment, etc. etc.
I command shot for years and years. I still will shoot a better score on a 3 spot Vegas face commanding the shot than I do when using a back tension surprise release. I can keep arrows in the yellow mostly, but just not quite as many land in the 10 ring as when I command the shot. I will have a couple fliers into the 8 ring when I mess up a command shot, but still always have a higher score at the end as when I surprise shoot, and definitely more X's. Surprise release simply gets me a lot of 9's rather than 10's.
Certainly some if this is my own form, but I'm also working on a spare bow right now trying a lot of the things that Paige had in her video to get it to hold better for me. It is just something I've never tried to do, I've always just set a bow at my draw length...or at the closest to my draw length that the bow's mods will offer in their 1/2" increments anyway...had a shop set the bow to spec and time it, set nock and rest height around halfway up in the Berger, tuned, and what I got was what I got. I'm doing it on a bow that actually is one of the worst holding bow's I've ever had, just to see how much better I can make it. I'm not very far along right now so can't really say as of yet.
Don't take sight advice from the sightless; don't take aiming advice from the aimless;
but, part of that whole watching the target and just letting the pin float is in the mind's desire to focus on the center of concentric rings, and many shooters realize greater accuracy with the float and surprise approach because subconsciously they are always bringing the pin "back to center," the shot goes off with that movement back towards the X...
Being said, it isn't the same for everyone, and your more accurate method is only "wrong" if you aren't getting the results you want; archery is one of those games where it's never wrong as long as you do it wrong the same way every time. If you feel you need to try something different because you aren't happy with your results, that's good, if you are trying something different because "others" say so, well...
but, part of that whole watching the target and just letting the pin float is in the mind's desire to focus on the center of concentric rings, and many shooters realize greater accuracy with the float and surprise approach because subconsciously they are always bringing the pin "back to center," the shot goes off with that movement back towards the X...
Being said, it isn't the same for everyone, and your more accurate method is only "wrong" if you aren't getting the results you want; archery is one of those games where it's never wrong as long as you do it wrong the same way every time. If you feel you need to try something different because you aren't happy with your results, that's good, if you are trying something different because "others" say so, well...
I'm kind of the same way. I'm a command shooter. When I tried a hinge, it gave more target panic and not less. I will admit that I only gave it a few weeks before I gave up and went back to command shooting. I just feel more comfortable using that style, but again, being completely honest, I know that a hinge can take months to get used to and I probably didn't give it enough time. Maybe I do need to tweak and tune my bow more as well. I'm also using more of a "hunting" stabilizer setup on a target bow because I'm mainly using it for 3D and TAC. I'm shooting unmagnified and with a 11" and 8" stabilizer, so I know that's not doing me any favors either, lol.Another thing to consider is pin float itself.
Surprise shooters, especially Pro's, spend a lot of time fine tuning both their form and adjustments to the bow to get it to "aim better".
Paige Pearce has a pretty good video on FB and Youtube that talks about everything she does to setup a bow so it aims better for her. Everything from arrow height in relation to the Berger, nock point, peep height, tiller, timing, cable tensioner setting, subtle draw length adjustments, d-loop length adjustments, holding weight...all can help with pin movement. This is all done before stabilizers are ever added to the bow, or the peep is tied in, or the bow is even shot. Just make an adjustment, draw and view what float is doing, and then let down and make another adjustment, etc. etc.
I command shot for years and years. I still will shoot a better score on a 3 spot Vegas face commanding the shot than I do when using a back tension surprise release. I can keep arrows in the yellow mostly, but just not quite as many land in the 10 ring as when I command the shot. I will have a couple fliers into the 8 ring when I mess up a command shot, but still always have a higher score at the end as when I surprise shoot, and definitely more X's. Surprise release simply gets me a lot of 9's rather than 10's.
Certainly some if this is my own form, but I'm also working on a spare bow right now trying a lot of the things that Paige had in her video to get it to hold better for me. It is just something I've never tried to do, I've always just set a bow at my draw length...or at the closest to my draw length that the bow's mods will offer in their 1/2" increments anyway...had a shop set the bow to spec and time it, set nock and rest height around halfway up in the Berger, tuned, and what I got was what I got. I'm doing it on a bow that actually is one of the worst holding bow's I've ever had, just to see how much better I can make it. I'm not very far along right now so can't really say as of yet.
That makes sense as well. I guess sometimes I do get TOO caught up in the "standard" way of doing things instead of focusing on what works for me.Don't take sight advice from the sightless; don't take aiming advice from the aimless;
but, part of that whole watching the target and just letting the pin float is in the mind's desire to focus on the center of concentric rings, and many shooters realize greater accuracy with the float and surprise approach because subconsciously they are always bringing the pin "back to center," the shot goes off with that movement back towards the X...
Being said, it isn't the same for everyone, and your more accurate method is only "wrong" if you aren't getting the results you want; archery is one of those games where it's never wrong as long as you do it wrong the same way every time. If you feel you need to try something different because you aren't happy with your results, that's good, if you are trying something different because "others" say so, well...
According to this, I'm a pin shooter. Same as you, if I let it float and focus on the target, my accuracy isn't there. Gonna watch this thread!Ok, so I have been shooting for a few years now, and I have mostly been more of a shooter who likes to release the arrow when the pin is on the spot that I want it, with pretty good results. However, the past few months I have been trying to focus more on just letting the pin float (basically ignoring it) and staring at/through my target instead. The problem that I'm having is that now my accuracy is DECREASING. My arrow is most definitely hitting where the pin is, which is actually the big problem. If my pin is "high" while I'm letting it float and I fire while still staring at the target, then my arrow ends up high. This is happening consistently, and now I'm wondering if I should go back to my old way of shooting.
I do recall rcrchery (on Youtube) stating that there are two types of shooters, those who focus on the pin, and those who focus on the target, and that he was more of a "pin shooter." With that being said, it seems that in the archery community "pin shooting" is looked down upon and considered the wrong way to shoot. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Is there something that I may be missing or doing wrong here with the new method that I'm trying?
Thanks in advance for any help given!
Shot process! You need to shoot enough to learn your shot timing.
Where are you the steadiest in your shot?
This is a great video. If you have never shot a resistance release try one. Blank bale for a couple of weeks with one.
Focus on release/shot process not aiming.
Where are you the steadiest in your shot?
This is a great video. If you have never shot a resistance release try one. Blank bale for a couple of weeks with one.
Focus on release/shot process not aiming.
I'll check that video out. You ask a good question, which could be a part of my issue as well. I am steadier closer to the beginning of my process, and I usually fire somewhat quickly, which most people would really frown upon. Now that I am "letting the pin float" more, I am using a longer shot sequence which, to me, ends up with me being less steady when I do eventually fire the arrow.Shot process! You need to shoot enough to learn your shot timing.
Where are you the steadiest in your shot?
This is a great video. If you have never shot a resistance release try one. Blank bale for a couple of weeks with one.
Focus on release/shot process not aiming.
Time yourself from draw to release and see how long it is. Note most pro's get their shot off in 7-11 seconds. Some of the field guys on windy days will hold a bit longer but still very quick from draw to shotI'll check that video out. You ask a good question, which could be a part of my issue as well. I am steadier closer to the beginning of my process, and I usually fire somewhat quickly, which most people would really frown upon. Now that I am "letting the pin float" more, I am using a longer shot sequence which, to me, ends up with me being less steady when I do eventually fire the arrow.
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